Ann Purcell | The Power of Vulnerability and Kindness | K&C 23

Vulnerability and Kindness

Author and songwriter Ann Purcell joins Gordon  in this episode to discuss how vulnerability and kindness can give us strength.  Ann shares her experience of being alone as an 18-year-old in a new environment and her song “Be Kind” that it inspired.  Gordon and Ann explore how the power of kindness and strength can be a powerful combination, and this is something Ann has experienced firsthand.

Ann believes that true vulnerability is a strength, not a weakness. We don’t normally share what’s going on in our internal world with people, but it’s through vulnerability that we are able to truly connect with other people.

Meet Ann Purcell

Ann Purcell
Ann Purcell

Ann Purcell is a philanthropist, award-winning author, and songwriter. Her latest publication is Tender Flower of Heaven, which is a collection of 130 poems. Ann has been a full-time teacher of Transcendental Meditation since 1973, teaching Transcendental Meditation and advanced courses in many countries around the world. In addition, she has worked on curricula and course development for universities and continuing education programs.

Ann is also an international leader of the TM-Women Organization and oversees the teaching of Transcendental Meditation in girls’ schools and communities in several countries in Africa. She donates all proceeds from her photography, books, and music to its educational programs. Ann founded Enlightenment For Everyone in 2012

Ann also wrote the song “Be Kind” which was based on her own experiences at a young age.

Be Kind written by Ann Purcell and performed by Olivia Seibel

Stay present and connected

Anne learned that by being connected to herself, she could be happy in any situation. She found that the more connected she was to her inner self, the less she was tossed about by the stormy seas of life.  Being connected to ourselves is not an intellectual connection, but an experiential one. It is a state of pure silence and stillness, where we are awake to our own silence instead of being focused on the outside world.

As we become more connected to ourselves, we become more relaxed and kind. We are also better able to access our intuition and intellect, allowing us to make better decisions.

Mindfulness is another way to stay present and connected. It is the practice of being aware of our thoughts and our surroundings.  Being mindful helps us to stay grounded and in the present moment, instead of worrying about the past or future. It also helps us to reduce stress and become more connected to our inner selves.

By staying present and connected, we can create meaningful connections with others and make positive changes in our lives. We can become more relaxed and kind, and access our intuition and intellect to make better decisions. Through mindfulness, we can stay grounded and in the present moment, allowing us to be more connected to ourselves and others. Being present and connected is an essential part of living a healthy and fulfilling life.

Let go naturally with TM

Transcendental Meditation (TM) is a technique that allows us to let go naturally and access a deep state of relaxation. TM is a form of meditation that uses a mantra to help the mind settle down and reach a state of stillness. By focusing on the mantra, we can become more aware of our thoughts and feelings, and eventually reach a state of pure transcendence.

When we practice TM, we go to the bottom of the ocean where there is no thought or movement. This is a state of pure stillness and quietness. It can be difficult to reach this level of stillness, but with TM, it happens naturally. We don’t have to try to slow down our minds or get rid of our thoughts; the mind will naturally go to that which is more pleasing.

When we come out of meditation, we are naturally more refreshed and the mind is more clear. We are more present and can focus on whatever task is at hand. We can use more of our minds in this capacity, and be more mindful and focused on our work.

We can also slow things down, allowing our body to follow, rather than keeping energy up. If someone is interested in getting started with TM, there are several steps they can take. They can find a certified teacher of TM, attend an introductory lecture, and take the four-day course. During the first day, they will learn the technique from the teacher, and the following three days will be spent answering practical questions and going deeper into the mechanics of the practice.

TM is a great way to let go naturally and access a deep state of relaxation. It can help us become more mindful and focused, allowing us to make better decisions and create meaningful connections with others. By learning TM, we can access a deeper level of stillness and quietness, and experience a more peaceful and present state of mind.

Being kind to others

One of the most important things we can do to create meaningful connections with others is to be kind. Kindness is a powerful force that can bring people together and create positive change.

Unfortunately, it is often overlooked or taken for granted. We can all benefit from taking the time to be kind to others, regardless of their background or beliefs. Being kind to others can also help to create a more peaceful environment.

Recently, Gordon heard a song called “Crack the Case” by Dawes. In  the lyrics of this song, there is a line that says, “It’s really hard to hate anyone when you know what they have lived through…” The song encourages us to be kind, even in the smallest of ways, as it can help someone to rise and stand tall. The song reminds us that we don’t know what someone else is going through, so it is important to be kind and understanding.


Being kind to others is an important part of creating meaningful connections and a more peaceful environment. We can all benefit from taking the time to be kind to ourselves and others, regardless of their background or beliefs. By practicing TM, we can access a deeper level of stillness and quietness, and experience a more peaceful and present state of mind. Kindness is a powerful force that can bring people together and create positive change, so let’s take the time to be kind.

We can all benefit from taking the time to be kind to ourselves and others, regardless of their background or beliefs. Practicing mindfulness and meditation can help us access a deeper level of stillness and quietness, and experience a more peaceful and present state of mind. Taking the time to be kind to ourselves can help us be kinder to others.

00:03 Okay.

00:05 Hi, I'm Anne Purcell, and I'm really happy to be on the kindness and compassion podcast. And to meet you, Gordon, I think it's a wonderful

00:16 message or conversation you're trying to project out in the world. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

00:24 Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast. And I'm so happy for you to get to know Anne Purcell. Welcome, Anne.

00:36 Thank you.

00:37 So glad. Yes. And so, Anne had reached out to me and her team and just Anne's got some really interesting things that she's done in particular.

00:50 She's a songwriter and has created a song around kindness and compassion. But Anne, as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed?

01:04 Oh, thank you. Well, I've got my profession is actually I'm a teacher of transcendental meditation. I don't know if you've heard of that. I've been a teacher of that since

01:15 49 years, meditating 50 years. And so I've always been interested in in reducing stress in people's lives.

01:28 In the topic of how we can evolve as people and spirituality. And of course kindness is a big part of that. And I've written many songs more in my experiences in meditation, or experiences of just the joy of life or nature out in nature.

01:51 I love writing about experiences nature.

01:54 But I had this one experience, it was actually the day after my mother passed away a couple years ago.

02:02 And I would I go I love to go for morning walks on the beach so I went for my usual morning walk and I noticed, there's some people walking over the beach and I, I said hi to them.

02:14 And usually I'm feeling very open and happy. And I think they thought that's probably I was feeling happy but inside I was feeling very tender, very emotional it just struck me that you don't know what people are feeling inside you really don't even

02:32 know what people that you look at them they seem happy, but you don't know what they're going through. And so, it just was a reminder of the importance to be kind to be respectful, and really for three or four days I felt kind of a disconnect with my environment.

02:50 And before I went like to the grocery store I just felt gosh they don't know what I'm experiencing in my life. What are they experiencing in their life. And that inspired the song be be kind.

03:04 Yes, yes. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more and I think that's one of the things that I've learned.

03:12 Over the years, is just, particularly in my work as a therapist you know just working with people, you know, we don't, we don't normally share what's going on in our internal world with people which, you know, quite frankly, it's not real smart to just

03:29 start with anyone, because that you know that's, but that it, I've also learned that it's through vulnerability that we are able to really truly connect with other people and then with vulnerability.

03:45 And when you're met with kindness and compassion that's when things really change for people. Yes, I agree that I've been hearing that word a lot in the past few years vulnerability that we have to not be afraid to be vulnerable.

04:02 I agree to be able to open up and, but I think vulnerability true vulnerability is also a strength. I think a lot of people look at vulnerability as a weakness, or you're vulnerable and you're going to get hurt and so we have to protect you.

04:19 I think, ultimately, or true vulnerabilities when we're actually very, we're so strong inside that we're not afraid to be open. Right, that we can be open. And so the question is then how to develop that strength.

04:36 How can we can be vulnerable so if some little storm comes it's not going to blow us over, we can we can meet the storm head on the open to it and uplift the situation or solve the problem situation or someone's attacking you in that storm, being able

04:57 to snap back and become defend become the defenses, but to be able to still be open and to engage in a conversation in a way that diffuses that situation.

05:13 Right, right.

05:15 Yeah. So, I don't know if you, I don't know if you agree with that from a clinical psychologist. Yeah, well no absolutely because as you were saying that what I was reminded of is.

05:26 There's a, there's a talk that I often refer my clients to my as a thought as a therapist and it was done by Brene Brown, who's pretty well known. And it's all it the title of the presentation is called the call to courage.

05:46 And essentially what she is. She says and there's exactly what you said and is that we cannot have courage without vulnerability, and in that one does not occur without the other.

06:01 And so, and she, you know, really put that together and just talking with like military veterans that had been through some horrific things and just being able to recognize that when, when you're vulnerable.

06:16 That's where courage comes from but also strength. Yes, yes, yes.

06:22 Yes. Yes. So, so, how to develop the strength is the question then, right, you can be vulnerable. Right.

06:32 And then when you have that strength. That's the basis for being kind to.

06:38 Because if you're have all these walls inside.

06:56 You know, unexpectedly, you know, it's like a, you're holding things inside and at some point that's going to have to release come out. Sure. So to be kind.

07:08 You really have to be full and happy inside and and strong. And then that allows for greater kindness and greater compassion what you're talking about so much right, right.

07:22 So, in your journey and with your practices of transcendental meditation what have you. What have you learned so far.

07:32 That's a big question.

07:34 That's a really big question.

07:37 Well, in the beginning, maybe we can start from the beginning. I think I learned to be by myself, that would be the first thing I learned.

07:48 When I was in school in England, I didn't know I didn't really feel I knew the people or felt I had much in common with the people.

07:57 I was around, I was a completely new situation I was 18 years old and when I learned TM transcendental meditation.

08:06 That was the first time I could sit by myself and actually enjoy being by myself. And I remember thinking to myself, if I can learn to be happy by myself.

08:20 I can learn to be happy in any situation.

08:24 So that was the first, I think big learning awakening, I had.

08:31 And then as just time grew and over the years and with transcendental meditation the changes are very subtle, subtle they just grow quietly and it's so natural that you almost sometimes don't even notice the growth until some situation happens and you think,

08:48 Oh, didn't react the way I used to react in that situation or I held my cool where normally that would have pushed my button and so little things like that start to happen more and more.

09:01 So, I learned that the more you're connected to yourself, it's like an anchor in your life. The more you're not tossed about by the stormy seas and so the importance of being connected to yourself and when I say being connected to yourself it's not an intellectual

09:22 connection. It's an experiential connection of just experience silence that silent state that's within everyone. We all have a very active mind.

09:34 And we also can be very worried and very have a very active mind and that's that more anxious stress state. And I think we've all experienced when we're in that very anxious stress state.

09:45 Nothing goes as well we we react to people in ways we wish we hadn't. We snap at people. We're not as efficient in our work.

09:55 But likewise if we've had a really good night's sleep and we wake up feeling really good that day, the whole day seems to go well and and and people smile on you it's like the world is smiling on you.

10:08 So, as you get rid of stress because when you transcend in TM the mind and body are intimately connected I'm sure you're really well aware of this.

10:21 So as the mind settles down the body settles down and gets a very deep state of rest, and that allows stress to be released.

10:29 And as the stress goes, you just feel more clear in your mind you feel more happier, but you have less of that, that's those thoughts on the surface level that way down, and you're more connected to those deeper thoughts, your intuition your, your intellect

10:47 becomes more clear those are deeper levels of the thinking process, but it's all based on the, your being level which is a state of pure silence pure stillness, where you're awake to your silence, instead of being awake to everything on the outside, you

11:04 become awake to that stillness, so that when I'm talking about that connected to connectedness to the to yourself. It's really an experience of that silence it's not an intellectual thing.

11:18 And then just very naturally very spontaneously you're just more relaxed you're more easy. And that allows you to be more kind and respectful I, I really feel respect belongs to the word kindness as well.

11:35 It means being respectful towards other people's right, right, you know, as you were saying all of that and one of the things that I was just thinking about in the context of doing doing therapy with people and working with people in that capacity.

11:52 One of the things that that happens is that our thoughts, we do have a very hard time turning our heads off and turning our thoughts off. Yes. And I think the more that we can practice another term for it is mindfulness of being just aware of what we're thinking

12:11 and being aware of where we are in our body and in our space and where we are in general. That is where we can really begin to, like you said, find that joy find that groundedness all of that kind of thing and so I think of, you know, transcendental meditation

12:30 and the, and what little bit I am familiar with it it's a way it's a process of grounding yourself and getting into getting into the present moment because there are two states that we can find ourselves in is one, we get.

12:48 Well, actually there's three states we can find ourselves in but we can two of them can keep us off track and one is a preoccupation or thinking about the future too much.

13:02 And that puts us in a state of anxiety of worry. Yes, you know what if this happens what if that happens that kind of thing.

13:09 And the opposite of that being being preoccupied with the past of thinking about well I wish I would have I wish I could have, you know, being in that space which is really kind of a space of guilt and maybe even depression to some degree.

13:25 But if we can teach ourselves. Yeah, regret. Yes, absolutely.

13:30 But I think if we can teach ourselves to be in the present moment, which is really the only thing we have control over anyway, is that's where we can begin to do like you said to calm the mind to become more mindful, more grounded and more in a place

13:49 of being able to find more joy and peace, that sort of thing.

13:53 That's really I really loved what you say and I think that's so completely true.

14:00 I guess, and obviously I'm a little biased because I am a teacher of transcendental meditation, and I'm not really biased because I think every technique of meditation has some value, some use.

14:11 But the only, the only thing I would say is that being mindful.

14:28 Mind just keeps going off. And so, I so stress anxiety can is what keeps a person from being mindful. So, and there are many many techniques of mindfulness so I'm never quite sure what when someone talks about mindfulness what they're actually talking about

14:50 is mindfulness of the breath is that mindfulness of just bringing your awareness back to the moment is mindfulness of just observing your thoughts there's there are many different techniques of mindfulness.

15:02 But the only thing I would say is that in transcendental. Let's say that you're practicing the mindfulness of just coming back to the present and being aware of your thoughts.

15:16 So let's take an example of the ocean. So you're, you're feeling stressed you're sitting on the beach so you think, okay, just look at the waves on the ocean just be aware of the waves.

15:28 You're still looking outside you're still being aware of the waves with TM. You actually go to the bottom of the ocean where it's that state of pure transcendence where there's no thought.

15:43 It's just stillness it's just quietness and there's even degrees of that quietness sometimes we can have that quietness but there's still some thoughts going around but you're more settled you're more still.

15:54 And you're not trying to bring your awareness, even to that stillness it just happens automatically.

16:02 And when you, and I can explain why that happens automatically but the point I'm trying to make here is, then when you come out of meditation, you're just naturally more refreshed the mind is more clear.

16:14 So whatever you're doing, you're putting more. You're just naturally automatically more present, you're using more of your mind in that capacity.

16:24 So if you're working in your office and you're working on writing something on your computer, instead of feeling stressed in your mind wandering all the time.

16:33 You're just feeling clear and relaxed so you're just very focused on your work, and that is a very pure state of mindfulness, when you're naturally focused.

16:44 Yeah, yeah, it does absolutely and that, you know, I think it's, as you describe it is really kind of learning to quiet the mind of really just kind of being focused on.

17:03 You know it's interesting I like the way you, you kind of clarified because there is, there are just several different ways we can be mindful and mindful of different things, and sometimes we can get that.

17:15 That can be overwhelming as well but I think being able to just being centered being able to slow things down enough to where we can, and our body will follow if we allow it, rather than just keeping, keeping energy up.

17:35 And the reason why in TM, you can slow the mind down in a natural way and that's very important there's no trying to slow the mind down there's no trying to get rid of our thoughts, is it goes by the principle, principle that the mind will always go to that which is more pleasing.

17:56 If we're talking now and your favorite music comes on your mind will go there. If you're reading a really good book, your mind will stay focused, if you're reading a boring book, the mind will wander.

18:08 I think every student knows if they have a good teacher. They love the class they're engaged but if it's not a good teacher. They're counting the seconds till the class is over.

18:19 So with TM, all we do is take that natural tendency of the mind to go to that which is more pleasing, but just turn it inward.

18:30 And it so happens those quieter levels of the mind are more charming and people have experienced that if you're reading a good book you're settled.

18:39 And you're just charmed by that experience. And, and those quieter levels of the mind the more they're more peaceful, and the mind will automatically go there it will automatically settle down all we do with TM is set up for the dive, but the dive happens

18:57 automatically. So that's a very important point. Yeah, that's great. That naturalness that it happens naturally. Right. Yeah.

19:06 So, if a person were interested in getting started with doing some transcendental meditation.

19:14 What's usually the.

19:16 What are usually the first steps in order to help them kind of go deeper.

19:21 Well, you do have to learn by a certified teacher of transcendental meditation we have teachers all over the world, all over the US and you can go, we have two websites, the main website and we have a woman's website TM dash

19:41 And you. You can hear an introductory lecture on the website, you can find a teacher in your area.

19:49 You can decide to take the course it's a four day course there is a fee that helps support the centers and the teachers and also some of the money goes to support those who can't afford to learn.

20:03 And that it's an hour, hour and a half for four days straight you have to make a four day commitment. The first day you do need to learn by a teacher.

20:14 But now we have an app where you can do the three follow up days via an app, or many teachers, many people also will. There will be a course in the TM Center and you can go to the course in the center.

20:28 But then you have it for life.

20:31 And it's so easy learn the first day but the three follow up days that there are just practical questions on the first follow up days, what do you do if the phone rings, what are the best time to the second day, you go into the mechanics of the practice

20:47 why it's natural, what are the roles of thoughts and meditation, why we don't try to get rid of thoughts and meditation. And the third day gives more of a vision of the possibility so it's a three day.

21:01 There's three follow up days after learning the first day and also during those three days, they have what's called the checking process, because it's a very subtle technique.

21:12 We're so used to trying in our lives and feeling we have to try and the harder we try or we may have done some technique of concentration in the past.

21:23 And so the three checking is just to verify the effortlessness of the technique just to make sure that it is effortlessness and you're not inserting anything yourself that you may have learned in the past.

21:38 Yeah, yeah, it's as you describe it it's kind of the visual the metaphor that came to mind for me was just thinking about floating in the water you have to learn to if someone floats in the water.

21:53 They have to learn how to just kind of let go of a lot of stuff. Yeah, letting go.

21:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, if we try to let go.

22:04 That's why it has to happen naturally. And that's, it's a very pleasant experience to I mean, different people, everyone has different physiologies. So everyone experiences different we teach in prisons we teach you we're talking about veterans or

22:22 Renee Brown was talking about veterans.

22:25 Sorry, Renee Brown.

22:28 We teach veterans who have post traumatic stress disorder, we've received a couple million dollar grant from the Veterans Administration or the Department of Defense to teach to do a study we have many phase one studies but now they're doing phase two

22:46 for veterans with post traumatic stress. And also we're teaching a lot in with doctors and nurses when the pandemic started. We launched a program called heal the healers, because the nurses were getting so burnt out and the doctors in the hospitals.

23:04 We're teaching in about 60 hospitals, and there's ongoing research in several hospitals like at Duke University and several hospitals in New York and think it's Brigham's hospital in Boston on the impact of TM with nurses and doctors and how to stress.

23:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that's going to be interesting to see and I think we can can almost predict how that's going to go.

23:33 Yeah, the preliminary results are very promising. That's good, but, but

23:40 doctors like to see research to do it with doctors and if they see the research but they're we're getting, there's a growing mainstream support for this practice, and because of the scientific research.

23:55 Yeah. Well, that's great. That's great. So, and to switch gears a little bit here. Tell folks a little bit about your song and what it's about and how they can find it.

24:07 Thank you for asking that. Well the songs called be kind.

24:11 It's the first line goes, you don't know if one is hurting, you don't know if one is in pain. What if his insides are churning with sadness of the pouring rain.

24:25 Maybe he's struggling with lack of money or has problems with his family maybe he's, oh gosh now I'm forgetting the words maybe he's.

24:36 Then the verse goes be kind be kind.

24:41 It's not that hard to be nice you may just save a life. Be kind, be kind, a warm hand a warm heart, a warm touch can help someone so much.

24:53 Any act of kindness no matter how small will help one to rise and stand tall. So those are some of the words that you can just do a YouTube search it's on YouTube.

25:05 Be kind you have to say the name and per cell because if you do a recent YouTube search. There's a song. Be kind by Halsey the singer, which is very different. Okay, doesn't have the same message.

25:19 Okay. Yeah. And so we'll have. Yeah, we'll be sure to have links in the show notes and show summary on the podcast for that. Yeah, so I bet yeah I'm reminded of.

25:31 Yeah, so speaking of songs and being kind.

25:35 There's a song that I've discovered here recently in the last year or two. And it's by doll, a group called dolls and I probably, I'll try to slip the, the title of the song because I'm drawing a blank on it here.

25:50 Right now as I think about it but there's a line in that song that essentially says, you can't hate anyone if you know what they've been through.

26:00 And so that's a yeah, yeah, and so that that whenever I hear that song it just always touches me just thinking about that, that, that, that whole practice, because I as folks have maybe heard me speak to before on this podcast.

26:19 You know, I think when we, when we take the time to learn somebody's backstory, or find out what is underneath. Yes, it really does create the space for being kind and compassionate with people and that's so important.

26:37 It's interesting and I can't remember her name I might as well. She's a comedian and she went around talking to, I think Republicans I think she was a Democrat.

26:51 And she discovered that if you could just actually get in the car into a conversation with them and talk about their life and everything then you could discuss the issues, and you could maybe come to some agreements and discovered that there are actually

27:08 many things they even agreed upon. And so, again, it goes to what you're saying when you really can have conversation and get to know someone and you know something comes up from their past or maybe you, you've prejudged this person, but then you hear

27:29 maybe what they went through when they were young, then it totally changes your image of that person and then you just have this incredible appreciation for that people.

27:41 And so it really is important to not judge and to really be open to people and respectful and kind it's so it's so important and it's such a simple concept really.

27:56 And, you know, I'm always reminded of the Bible do unto others as you would have do unto you, you know, because we all want to be treated with respect and kindness, and so it's, it's hard sometimes it's just a habit of being catty we, we can gossip

28:15 about people and we're just Oh, that person's looks like that today. I remember I was very lucky not that I always went by my father's advice but I remember growing up, if I was complaining about my teacher at school he'd always say, Well, you don't know what's going on in

28:31 their family you don't know what's going on, how he might have wrote woken up on the wrong side of the bed. Right. And so my father would never let me complain about people, because he'd always say that to me and so not that I could always follow that advice

28:50 you know and and again I think it's structured in our own physiology, being able to be kind and respectful to other people for not feeling good ourselves, then it's hard to be.

29:04 Yeah. Good to other people right right. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's a it's an interesting phenomenon and that when, and again I've experienced this in my work with people and therapy and that sort of thing.

29:19 When somebody can put hand with somebody hands you something that's particularly hard, or something that brings them shame, or, you know, any sort of kind of the negative emotions.

29:33 Yeah, if they if they hand that to you and you treat that with kindness.

29:38 It creates change for them and for yourself.

29:42 It allows them to open up and it creates trust, a bond of trust and without that, you're going to just put up those walls inside right and not be open.

29:56 Yes. So how can we do this on a bigger scale you obviously understand this. Yeah, it's.

30:04 Yeah, I think it's it's through just this type of thing as far as you do you know, I don't know if you're familiar there was a story and I can't remember who it's attributed to but it's a just a story about this man walking along the beach.

30:20 And he's seeing all these starfish that are washing up on the beach. And so he's very carefully taking each starfish and putting it back into the ocean.

30:29 And this other person walks by and says, you know, I don't know why you're wasting your time doing this because you'll never get all these back into the ocean.

30:40 And he said, you're not going to make a difference here and so the man just very quietly picks up another one and takes it and puts it back in the ocean and says, I made a difference for that one.

30:52 And so that's a great story. Yes. And so I think that's kind of getting to your thought there. How do we make a difference? And I think it's just one, one person at a time and one starfish at a time.

31:05 And then that has a way of just kind of spreading.

31:09 And so that's, that's kind of my goal. My mission with this podcast is for us to make differences whoever might be listening to this, maybe make a difference in their life.

31:20 You bring up an interesting point because when I wrote the song Be Kind I started going online and looking for articles about being kind I came across Steve Hartman his kindness 101 and, and he had that beautiful show I don't know if you saw it on TV

31:36 but it was all these acts of kindness of just people doing a little bit out of the ordinary acts of kindness and, and I think I believe that what you put your attention on grows in life so if you put your attention on all the negativity that's happening

31:53 in your life but if you put your attention on the positive thing then you start seeing it all around you, and everybody wants this it's just we don't see it in the news and we don't see it in, I was so glad to see Steve Hartman show, I think.

32:10 And it is actually out there and I think the more people like you and your podcasts who are putting I mean I have no illusions my songs going to change the world that I keep thinking well, if a few people sing it and it's sort of like a mantra Be Kind

32:26 because songs get stuck in here, your head, you know, maybe it will remind someone and like you said well if it helps one person to be kinder, and, and, and I really believe that sometimes it can save a life literally save life just that moment of

32:44 kindness to someone who might just at that moment be in despair, really despair. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a is, is a, I like to think of it as our job is just to plant the seeds.

32:57 Yes, yes and then the whole force will grow green. Yeah, and to have a green forest. They all have to grow green. Yeah, right. Yeah.

33:06 Well, and I want to be respectful of your time and I'm so glad we have this conversation. Tell folks how they can get in touch with you and connect with you if they'd like to.

33:18 Oh, thank you. Well, they can go to my website, enlightenment for

33:25 And they can connect to me there. And that links to my songs and to my books. And that would be wonderful. Thank you. Can I make one last little point when you're talking about kindness spreading.

33:40 I think the last time I heard someone say that stress. It's much thicker, and it, it actually is spreads less were kindness and good thoughts and all goodness, it's much thinner it's not as heavy as stress, and therefore it spreads farther and faster.

34:02 Yeah, so and I think kindness does is, if everyone puts their attention on it. It does spread more so that was just yeah. Yes, that's great. That's great. So, yeah, well, and I'm so glad we got connected and will have and information here in the show notes.

34:20 And if you want to connect with the end and learn more about her work and what she's doing in the world. You can do it there so thanks again and Gordon Thank you so much and thank you for what you're doing and generating this important conversation.

34:35 Thanks.

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L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.



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