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Teresa Williams | Finding Kindness and Compassion In The Midst Of Broken Relationships | K&C 22

Love and compassion in divorce is an often misunderstood concept. Divorce is often seen as a negative thing, and there is a stigma attached to it that can be hard to overcome.  In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with Teresa Williams, MA, MS, LPC about how love and compassion can be found even in the midst of a divorce. 

When Teresa Williams, a licensed professional counselor in Huntsville, Alabama, went through her own divorce, she experienced the pain and loneliness that comes with it. She felt abandoned by family, friends, and even her church. This experience led her to start the Confident and Courageous Woman website, a coaching program designed to help women going through divorce. 

Meet Teresa Williams

“With compassion and understanding, I serve individuals, families, and groups.  Through offering practical help, I’ve watched them become hopeful as they maneuvered life in new circumstances.  I am honored to sit with people in a variety of crises, life stages, relationship struggles, and painful situations.  I am thankful to be a practical and hopeful voice.

My background includes a Bachelor’s degree in Human Resource Management, a Master of Arts Degree in Human Services Counseling from Liberty University, and a Master of Science in Counseling from Faulkner University. I am a Licensed Professional Counselor in Alabama. My counseling experience includes psychological assessments, working with adults, divorce recovery, women’s issues, and marital difficulties. I am a Prepare/Enrich pre-marital and marriage facilitator and a Board-Certified Life Coach. I am trained in Levels 1, 2 & 3 of Gottman Method Couples Therapy and lead seminars as a Gottman Leader of The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work couples program.  I am a speaker for business and women’s conferences/events

I love traveling with my husband, spending time reading, listening to music, and playing with our dog, Ollie.”

Help Going Through a Process 

As a therapist, Teresa understands the stages of the grief process. She said expressed you think you know what to expect “until you actually walk that path, and you start experiencing the grief on multiple levels. And a lot of times people don’t know what to do.” People don’t know what to say. They take sides or they don’t take sides and they just disappear. And it’s a very chaotic time, especially in the beginning. So being able to find the support and the kindness and compassion and what that looks like can help a lot of people. People don’t know how to do that because they haven’t walked through it. Or there is judgment. There’s so much stigma. You put the word divorce between, in front of, or behind any other word, and it’s always negative. And it shouldn’t be that way. “What I have found also is being able to help others understand how to walk alongside someone who is experiencing this devastating life change.”

Loves and Acceptance Through Spiritual Beliefs 

Teresa Williams wants people to know “If we look at scripture, the only people that Jesus really condemned were the Sadducees and the Pharisees. And everyone else, He had compassion for. And not that he overlooks sin, but he didn’t condemn them. He did criticize, he showed love and support. People might think “Am I committing a sin? Is God ever going to forgive me? Can I ever remarry?” Teresa continues, “I’m not a theologian, but I do know what scripture says about Jesus and how he interacted with people, and he loved them, and he accepted them where they were. And regardless of whether you view it as a sin or a survival, God still loves you, and God still accepts you. And you can move on.” Sometimes we forget that Jesus extends grace and mercy to everyone. We want that same grace and mercy from Jesus, and we need to extend that to others around us, regardless of what they’re walking through. 

Grace and Self-Care Navigating through Divorce

For a lot of people, the hardest person to give grace to is herself. Especially at the beginning. There’s so much chaos. Their world has just fallen apart, and they don’t know what to do. They don’t know where to turn to. Everything around them just got shattered. There’s a lot of fear. It’s hard to not feel overwhelmed. So, taking one step at a time and self-care can be forgotten. One of the hardest things for women, just in general is asking for help.  It’s hard to say, “I need help with (fill in the blank).” There’s so much judgment and criticism around divorce, especially in the church. And so, a woman is fearful to even reach out even to friends and family.

Advice for helping Someone Going Through Divorce

Loneliness is a big issue. People do not know how to come alongside. They don’t know what to say or how to help this person. That’s hard for a lot of individuals. How other people can come alongside these individuals? Spiritually, pray for them. And maybe get them involved, such as going with them to a Bible study or to a weekly meeting that the churches have. If they’ve been ostracized by their church and they feel and they don’t feel comfortable anymore going to the church, how about saying, “Hey, how about coming with me on Sunday morning?” This time is hard because this person is grieving. There are a lot of tears. Teresa remembers thinking “The tears are never going to end, and the pain is never going to stop.” A big support would be if a person can just come alongside and let that person talk without offering advice. Let them cry without judgment. Don’t take sides, just be there for that person. Just being there, just being present. 

Other things that we can do alongside is for the physical side. Do something to relieve the stress on that person. Offer to take them to dinner or lunch. Come over and cook dinner for them. Take them to a concert. Go on an activity. Teresa remembers “When I went through it my house was a disaster because I was working all kinds of crazy hours at the time. And, having a house that’s messy just adds one more burden to you. And I had a good friend who just came over and allowed me to cry. And she vacuumed my floor. She washed my dishes. It was such a comfort to me. It meant so much to me.”  Do something for her so she can take care of herself. Let that woman take a hot bubble bath or just sit down and catch up on laundry. Do the things that show compassion and kindness to her in her time of need.  

Advice on Healing

First, take your time and take your time and allow yourself to agree with all the emotions associated with the shock of it, the anger, and the disbelief. There will be times of bargaining and all the stages of grief. Allow yourself those emotions, don’t stuff them. Get a good friend that’s going to come alongside you and be there and encourage you. This friend is one that doesn’t offer advice but just radiates encouragement and love. And then go find a therapist. Go do your own work. Find the things that you need to take care of yourself. It’s a process. It’s not a one-and-done thing. It doesn’t mean that when the ink is dry on the divorce decree that all of a sudden life’s going to go back to some type of normal and you’re going to be okay. It doesn’t work like that. Remember, it’s a process. 

There will be new stages and relearning. It is learning how to deal with the triggers. The sight smells, the taste that triggers you to your past, and learning how to cope with them and not allow them to take you down and derail you. Also understanding what the new norm is. Because there is a lot of adjustments. Maybe you didn’t get the house in the divorce, or maybe you have to move. And then the custody situation if there’s kids involved. Now you’re used to having your kids all the time around you. Suddenly they have to go over to dad’s house, for the weekend or every other week. That’s a major adjustment. During this time it is so vital not to isolate yourself. It would be natural, depending on the circumstances, that you don’t want to talk to people. You don’t want to put yourself out there.  You don’t want to have to explain what happened for the hundredth time. Stay active and being a part of the community and having that support is really vital to your emotional health. 

Final Message from Teresa

“For the person that is walking through [divorce] I just want to encourage them. If you’re willing to do the work, if you’re willing to keep moving forward, you will be okay. I can promise you that. “…What’s really important, is to know that there’s hope in healing beyond divorce, regardless of your circumstances.” 

Teresa has free resources on her web page. Go to Confident and Courageous Woman for five tips for dealing with the Stress of Divorce. They can reach out Teresa through that website. She has coaching programs and she is getting ready to launch (soon) a membership program. in membership.

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Gordon Brewer: Record. Okay, Go ahead. Hello
Teresa Williams: everyone. Welcome to this episode of Kindness and Compassion Podcast. I am so excited to be here with my friend Gordon. I'm Therea Williams, licensed professional counselor in Huntsville,
Gordon Brewer: Alabama. Perfect.
Hello everyone and welcome again to the Kindness and Compassion Podcast and I'm really looking forward to you to getting getting to hear from my guest today there, Williams. Welcome there. Thank you, Gordon. Glad to be here. Yes. And there I met and I actually met through my other podcast, the Practice of Therapy podcast, and I knew from our conversation that we really wanted to I wanted to get her on this podcast because I think she is Doing some work just with this whole intersection between spirituality and what it's like for people that are going through divorce, particularly women and that sort of thing.
So therea be tell folks about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Teresa Williams: Okay like I said before, I'm a licensed professional counselor and in my practice I see individual, I do married to family and I saw a need to be able to help women who, one, either walking through divorce or been divorced and maybe don't know what to do and stuck.
And I know those feelings personally because I have walked that journey. I was married for a hundred years. Not really, but it felt like it uhhuh and had children and had a spouse who committed adultery and it was a very public and nasty divorce. And I felt alone and abandoned, not by only family and friends, but also my church.
And so my hardest desire, Is to be able to help other women that, again, who are either currently walking through a divorce or been divorced for a while and don't have the support and the encouragement they need. . So I felt like the Lord was calling me. So I started a website separate from my.
Therapy practice called the competent and courageous woman. . And it is a coaching program just for that to be able to come along and work alongside other women experiencing divorce.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think it's a struggle. I know both of us are from the south, We talked about that before and I think just culturally, there's I think some misplaced stigmas around divorce and around people that are going through kind, the end of a marriage and there's a whole grieving process that occurs with that.
I know we talked about that previously, but I. In your work? What, I guess what I'm interested in, or I think maybe folks would be interested in, is it sounds like you went through a process of changing your mind about some things, just not only on the spiritual side of things, but just for you personally, and of course being a therapist to, you've got all the information, but when you experience it personally, it's a different thing.
So you wanna say something about all those things? Yeah,
Teresa Williams: it is. And like you say, being a therapist, I know all the grief stages and I know where you think you know what to expect until you actually walk that path and you start experience the grief on multiple levels. And a lot of times people don't know what to do.
They don't know what to say and they take. Or they don't take sides and they just disappear. And it's a very chaotic time, especially in the beginning. So being able to find the support and the kindness and compassion and what that looks like, a lot of people. Don't know how to do that because a either one, they haven't walked through it.
Or two from a judgmental sign like we talked about. There's so much stigma. You put the word divorce between, in front of or behind any other word, and it's always negative. And it shouldn't be that way. , what I have found also is being able to help others understand how to walk alongside someone who is experiencing this devastating life change.
.
Gordon Brewer: . Yes. Yeah. And I know one of the things I know just in my own work I'm also a marriage family therapist, and I think one of the struggles that people have as well is. Is just feeling like they are, for lack of a better term committing a sin by going through with a divorce and that sort of thing.
And so in your work with people around that, how do you help them navigate that and just really because that gets into our values and our beliefs and our faith and all of that sort of thing. How do you help people kinda walk through. Dilemma, so to speak.
Teresa Williams: If we look at scripture, the only people that Jesus really condemned were the Sadducees and the Pharisees.
And everyone else. He had compassion for right. And not that he overlooks sin. , but he didn't condemn them. , he did criticize, he showed love and support. And, they're so mis what I wanna say, interpretations of scripture. And regardless of what side of the fence you're on, whether you are the one that's wanting the divorce and.
the marriage is no longer working for whatever reason. Abuse. , whatever. And you feel like that you need to get out or your spouse is divorcing you and you're looking, you're going. Wait a minute. Am I committing a sin? Is God ever gonna forgive me? Can I ever remarried? And depending upon what orientation spiritually you stand on, one of the things that I don't try to get into mud.
I'm not a colo, but I do know what scripture says about Jesus and how he interacted with people and he loved them, and he accepted them where they were. . And regardless whether you view it as a sin or a survival, God still loves you, God still accepts you. And you can move on.
Gordon Brewer: And I think the other thing that's helpful to maybe understand is that the when the scriptures were written, and again, I'm not. I don't want to, I don't want to force my views on anyone else, but one of the things that I think is important to remember is that when the scriptures were written, it was in a totally different culture in totally different time.
Absolutely. And that and that you have to take that into context. Back in, back during those times, 2000 years ago, Women were just basically seen as property and not to be treated as any different than, , your animals or anything else. And I think one of the things again that Jesus that came through with that, with Jesus is that he did treat it with compassion.
And I think a lot of what was said in the New Testament about divorce, if you look at it through the lens of compassion, of really check making sure. That people are taken care of, that somebody's not left destitute, somebody's not left on the street to fend for themselves. That's a different way of looking at it because I think it's a, yeah, totally different culture and time.
Teresa Williams: Absolutely. And sometimes we forget that Jesus extends grace and mercy to everyone. Yes. And that we want that same grace and mercy from Jesus, and we need to extend that to others around us, regardless of what they're walking through.
Gordon Brewer: And I think it, I think the other thing too Is that's where self care comes into play.
And I think one of the, I think for a lot of people, the hardest person to give grace to is herself. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Theresa, with your work with folks that are of women in particular that are going through a this thing of divorce, what. What sort of themes do you see that you would, that you tend to try to help them navigate through?
Teresa Williams: I think there's, especially at the beginning, there's so much chaos. Their world has just fallen apart and they don't know what to do. They don't know where to turn to. Everything around them just got chattered. . And there's a lot of fear and, being able, just like you talk about, to say, Okay, don't get overwhelmed.
Let's take one step at a time. , let's do this self care. And I think one of the hardest things for women, just in general is asking for help is being able to reach out and say, I need, and fill in that blank. . A lot of times, like we talked about, there's so much judgment and criticism around divorce, especially in the church.
And so a woman is fearful to even reach out. And sometimes, like I said before, that even includes friends and family.
Gordon Brewer: . Yeah. And one of the, one of the things just in mental health, I think one of the things that just is Really at the root of a lot of mental health issues is this sense of being lonely or being alone.
And I think that when we can help people get connected and really kinda reassure them that there are other people out there that are being, that are willing to be with them on the journey, that's where a lot of healing can.
Teresa Williams: Absolutely. And you know when a lot of people don't know how to come alongside, they don't.
Because of before one, they have maybe never walked through it themselves or even had a friend or family member walk through it and they don't know what to do. They don't know what to say or how to help this person because if you look at them, they're a mess. . , and so that's part of the problem as.
Right,
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think that, if anybody is going through a divorce or going through a situation where they are, yeah, you. Maybe not feeling good about themselves or feeling kinda hopeless about their situation. That you, just to echo what you said is being able to reach out to the right people around that and being able to get that support.
I think the other thing too, that we kinda hinted at is that, There's a lot of grief involved in this and being able to allow someone to go through the grieving process and mourn, mourn what is happening.
Teresa Williams: Yeah. And that's hard for a lot of individuals. . And so if I could just speak for a second or two of how other people can come alongside these individuals.
Spiritually, if you know the. Pray for them, obviously. , and maybe get them involved offer for, to a Bible study or to a weekly meeting that the churches having. Or if they've been ostracized by their church and they feel, they don't feel comfortable anymore going to the church.
How about offering to say, Hey, how about coming with me on Sunday morning? And just come and worship with. and emotionally, it's really hard because this person is grieving. There's a lot of tears. In fact, I remember myself thinking the tears are never going to end.
, the pain is never gonna stop and. If a person can just come alongside and let that person talk without offering advice, and let them cry and no judgment. And the other side is don't take sides, just be there for that person.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think it's a our tendency as human beings is when we see someone else in pain is that we want to fix it for them and somehow or another take the pain.
But the truth of the matter is that the pain is there. And I think you're exactly right. It's just that journey alongside and being with there's a, I think there's a lot to be said for. What I like to refer to as the ministry of presence, of being just present with people and being able to just let them know that they're not alone in this.
That doesn't necessarily take the pain away, but it does provide a sense of comfort to some degree. And yeah. Yeah.
Teresa Williams: I really like that. Just being there, just being present. Other things that we can do alongside is for the physical side. , is maybe doing something to relieve stress on that person, like just being a friend, offering to take them to dinner or lunch and or coming over and cooking dinner for them.
, how about, taking 'em to a concert, offering them to go on activities or, I remember. When I went through it my house was a disaster because I was working all kinds of crazy hours at the time. And, having a house that's messy just adds one more burden to you. And I had a good friend who just came over and allowed me to cry.
And she vacuumed my floor. , she washed my dishes and it was such a comfort to me. , it meant so much to me. Whatever that is, that if someone is going through divorce and has small kids, they don't get a break most of the time. Yeah. Let the kids out for ice cream. Yeah. Let that woman take a hot bubble bath or just sit down and catch up on laundry.
. So those are things that we can show compassion and kind. To others.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, I love that. So is in your work as a therapist and just working with people that are going through these kinds of struggles with the, with a divorce or ending of a relationship and that sort of thing. What do you see as the tasks maybe that's not a great word, but what do you see as, what is the work of recovering from situations like this?
Teresa Williams: First of all is take your time and take your time and allow yourself to agree all the emotions associated with, the shock of it and the anger, the, the disbel belief. The bargaining, all the stages of grief. And allow yourself those emotions, don't stuff them. , get you a good friend that's going to come alongside you and be there and encourage you.
That doesn't offer advice, but just encouragement and love. And then go find a therapist. Go do your own work. I did that myself and. Find the things that you need to take care of you. , because it's a process. It's not a one and done thing. It doesn't mean that when the ink is dry on the divorce decree that all of a sudden life's gonna go back to some type of normal and you're gonna be okay.
, it doesn't work like that. I have a, it's a process.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of layers to it, and everybody's situation is a little different, but I think one of the things is, you're right, is finding a professional to talk to about it. Because as I think about it, there's not only.
The grief of it, but there might be some trauma associated with it, and a person being able to find, finding out about secrets that have been kept and all of that sort of thing. Dealing with that. The redefining of self, particularly for people that have been married for a while.
They define themselves in the context of a relationship. And so in, in many ways, you're having to redefine who you are as a person and all of that sort of thing. And so that, like you said, that's a process. And I think I remember a friend of mine who's also a therapist was talking about grief in terms of it's not something you get.
But it's something you get through and I think a lot of times to be able to just recognize that it's not necessarily something you're gonna get over and it's just gonna be done. But you're getting through it and it will crop up again. That's the nature of grief.
Teresa Williams: It is and learning how to deal with the triggers.
The sight smells, the taste that trigger you to your past and learning how to cope with them and not allowing them to take you down and derail you. And right. Also understanding what the new norm is. Because there is a lot of adjustments. Maybe you didn't get the house in the divorce, Maybe you have to move.
And then the custody situation with, if there's kids involved, now you're used to having your kids all the time around you, and now they have to go over to dad's house, for the weekend or every other week. That's a major adjustment. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: And I think that's yeah. And so I think, again, going full circle back to finding someone that can walk alongside you in that journey is gonna be one of the most helpful things that you, that anyone can do with that.
Absolutely. Yeah. And then finding a safe community to be in with all of that. And we're talking about church, but there are other different communities that people can be involved in to where they can get that support. And so really getting community and support.
Teresa Williams: Yeah, absolutely. That is so vital and not to isolate yourself, because a lot of times, depending on the circumstances, you don't wanna talk to people, you don't wanna put yourself out there, You don't wanna have to explain what happened for the Hunt or Tom and have somebody either a, not know what to say, or when they do say something, it's not helpful.
. And Active and staying, aware of being involved in the community and having that support is really vital to your emotional
Gordon Brewer: health. Yes. Therea I, I wanna be respectful of your time, but what are some other parting thoughts that maybe you have just around this topic and just thinking about how people can live into kindness and compassion around divorce, particularly if for folks that maybe find it a little bit.
Teresa Williams: Is, first of all, I would say to those who find it troubling, we don't live with that couple, We don't know what has gone on in that marriage. , we weren't there, so we don't really have a right to judge. , we don't have a right to criticize because we don't know, we didn't live with them and vice versa.
If we're married, people don't live with us, hopefully. And so they don't know what goes on behind closed doors. . And having that compassion and kindness around it for that person who's walking that path is so vital. . And for the person that is walking through it I just wanna encourage them.
You will get. , if you're willing to do the work, if you're willing to keep moving forward, you will be okay. , I can promise you that. , and that's what's really important, is to know that there's hope in healing beyond divorce, regardless of your circumstances.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. That's great.
That's great. Theresa, tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they have questions or want to connect with.
Teresa Williams: I have a free handout. If they wanna go to Confident and courageous woman.com. , there is a free handout, It's five tips for dealing with the Stress of Divorce.
They can reach out to me through that website at Teresa at Confident and Courageous Woman and I have coaching programs and we're getting ready to launch hopefully soon in membership. So they can reach out and I would be glad to talk with
Gordon Brewer: them. Awesome. And we'll have links here in the show notes and the show summary for all of this.
Teresa, it's good to reconnect again and hope you as we're recording this, we're moving full force into the holiday season. So I hope you have a great holidays and Thank you. You too. And all of that kinda fun stuff. Alrighty.
Teresa Williams: Thank
Gordon Brewer: you. It's been a pleasure. Yes, mine too.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Caroline Vogel & Billy Daniel | Living Into Self Kindness and Compassion | K&C 21

In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with The Rev. Caroline Vogel and The Rev. Dr. Billy Daniel about how we can practice kindness and compassion by reaching out to those around us, offering a helping hand, and showing understanding and empathy. They also talk about ways to build bridges between different communities, cultures, and beliefs by listening to each other and trying to understand one another’s perspectives.  One of the most important practices to foster kindness and compassion is self-compassion. Self-compassion is the practice of being kind to oneself and recognizing that we all make mistakes and have flaws. It is important to recognize that we all have our own unique set of experiences and that we can learn from our mistakes.

Introducing Billy and Caroline

I’m so glad for you to get to know Caroline Vogel and Billy Daniel. They are friends of mine from my work in the Episcopal Church. Both Caroline and Billy are Episcopal priests serving in Knoxville, Tennessee at Church of the Ascension.

The Rev. Dr. Billy Daniel is a priest, poet, theologian and the rector at Church of the Ascension and author of Christ in the Liturgy and Inhabited By Grace; The Incarnate Way of Love.  Billy works with congregations and individuals to help deepen their spiritual lives.  He has a podcast, Fr. Billy Daniel which features sermons, homilies and spiritual reflections.

The Rev. Caroline Vogel serves as The Director for Spiritus Knox a center for spiritual learning and practice in Knoxville, Tennessee. Spiritus Knox is a gathering place for anyone and everyone who is looking for some sacred space to find some ease and spiritual wellness and connect with others seeking to do the same. We offer weekly gatherings on Sunday Evenings in addition to retreats throughout the year. On occasion we have the good fortune to host authors to share about their books, passion and connect with us who seek to explore with them. You can learn more about Spiritus Knox at our website: www.spiritusknox.com. Caroline also has a podcast, Mindful Christians; living embodied faith.

Make Space for Community

Caroline said that what we’re trying to do in Ascension is really make space for people to reimagine what the church is and how they can be part of it. How they can connect to it so that they experience a new way of living out their spiritual life and connecting with God. They are fond of saying “Ascension as a seminary for the city, which is really a fancy way of saying that we are a space that cultivates a certain kind of soil that enriches the community and the lives of those around us.”

Why do we need kindness and compassion

Gordon has been thinking about the need for kindness and compassion for a while. “One of the things that I really noticed in my work as a therapist is that how much people were hurt.” He notices just how isolated people are from each other. “How do we live into more kindness and compassion, not only with each other, but with ourselves because we, we have a relationship to ourselves first and then to the world.”

Gordon has been working with people in the therapy office and also serving in the church. He works with people that have been through trauma. People who have been through some horrific things in their lives. He works to help people find much greater sense of contentment and peace in their lives by the different ways they can practice kindness and compassion.

Ways to practice kindness and compassion

How do you help people move past the polarization in our society and embrace kindness and compassion? The practices are very simple but complicated at the same time. People need to find something that works for them.
One way to practice more kindness and compassion is mindfulness. Just being self-aware. Being aware of what is going on for you internally as well. Mindfulness is being able to think about what you’re thinking about. Being aware of that and how it’s affecting you physically and emotionally and spiritually.

Another way is the practices of gratitude are really looking at what you have rather than what you don’t have. Be aware of what you have and be grateful.
As simple as this sound is, doing simple acts of kindness out in the world increases our capacity to experience kindness and compassion. And so that just kind of behavior perpetuates itself. Living into kindness and compassion is really getting curious about others. Being kind can get us unstuck from the loop of criticism and defensiveness. Change that up. Instead of becoming defensive when we’re faced with something that maybe we don’t agree with or faced with criticism of some sort, is to get curious about what is going on with that other person in their life. Ask questions and just get curious with the other person.

Give room for kindness and compassion

We all have a filter. When we become more aware of our filter it gives us room to be able to see things from another perspective. Gordon has an optical illusion in his office that can look like a young woman or an old woman, depending on how you look at it. Is it an old woman or is it a young woman? And the truth of the matter is it’s not either or it’s both. One of the things about leaning into kindness and compassion is being willing to embrace both and rather than the either or. This opens us up to empathy, allowing room for kindness and compassion. When you understand what is going on in the background for someone, then there is no room for the spirit of judgment.

Deeper awareness by practicing kindness and compassion

No matter how much they pour their heart open to us, we do not know exactly what they are going though. It’s their story. When they share it with us, and we receive it as they offer it with a nonjudgmental and curious posture it enables us to receive them as they are. Which again opens us to a deeper awareness of who they are. We create a kind of space together. We all become more fully alive in the process. And, and that’s the whole beauty of the spirit of generosity, this curiosity and receiving. Practice listening. Practice being curious the whole time. Practice holding them gently. That is the essence of kindness and compassion.

Show notes by James Marland, CCS

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Caroline: And Compassion With a guest. With a guest. Gordon Brewer. So Gordon, will you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Gordon Brewer: Well, sure. Thanks for, thanks for having me. Yes. I'm a, um, I'm a deacon in the Episcopal Church and so, uh, uh, really a deacons ministry is really more in the world than anything else. But I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in private practice in Kingsport t.
and I work with both, uh, couples and individuals on just, uh, any array of, of, you know, problems that people might have. And, um, yeah. And then the other thing that I do that I think is a lot of fun is I also have a podcast called The Kindness and Compassion. Podcasts where really, um, it's a podcast about ending the, kind of the division and polarization in the world and really looking at how we can look at the intersection of psychology, religion, spirituality, and how we can live into more kindness and compassion in our lives.
Wow, that's great.
Caroline: That's wonderful.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. Okay, so
Billy: let's see.
Gordon Brewer: It's not picking up quite as well as I hoped for, but
Billy: like Sarah,
Gordon Brewer: the sign there? No, but
Caroline: she's got crispy her donuts.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. First name and last name again. Billy Daniel. Billy Daniel. I wanted to say Bob. I don't know why. Billy. Bob. Billy Bob? Mm-hmm.
Okay. All right, here we go. Hello folks, and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so glad for you to get to know today. Caroline Vogel and bought Billy.
Caroline: Daniel .
Gordon Brewer: I had Billy Bob in my
Caroline: head. Sorry I messed you up. That's
Gordon Brewer: good. All right, we'll start over. Okay. My fault. My fault. It's okay,
Well, hello folks and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so glad for you to get to know Caroline Vogel and Billy Daniel, who are friends of mine from my work in the Episcopal Church. But welcome Caroline and.
Caroline: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for, thanks for having us. We're excited to be on your podcast.
Gordon Brewer: Yes.
And as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit about yourself and how you've. Landed where you've landed. Mm.
Billy: You should go first.
Caroline: Okay. So, so I'm Caroline and I'm an Episcopal priest serving in Knoxville, Tennessee at Church of the Ascension. Billy and I actually serve there together.
Um, I serve as the associate priest for, um, adult formation and we started a new center called, uh, spirit Two Snacks, which is a center for spiritual learning and. Um, we're offering a variety of things, including retreats and, uh, teaching people about different spiritual tools. And one Sunday night we get together and breathe together.
Mm-hmm. . Um, we have a Celtic service and a, um, a book study each month. So we're just doing a, a lot of different kinds of things to help people experience community. Around, uh, their spiritual lives. Mm-hmm. , um, maybe especially those that, uh, Sunday morning's not quite working for them anymore or not working so well.
Um, yeah,
Gordon Brewer: yeah, yeah.
Billy: So, yeah. So I'm Billy Daniel. I'm the, uh, rector at Church of the Ascension in Knoxville, Tennessee. I've been here for all of eight. And I am an Episcopal priest and, and grateful to serve here in Ascension and, and to be a part of a lot of the stuff that we are doing. And so, as Caroline mentioned, she's the director of Spirit two Snots, which is a new initiative, uh, that we started in March, maybe June, June.
June. It was June. June. And, and there. What we're trying to do in Ascension is really make space for people to, um, reimagine what the church is and, and how they can be part of it and connected to it so that they experience. Um, a new way of living out their spiritual life and connecting with God. And, and part of that's through initiatives like Spirit Two, snots Others is something I'm fond of saying is, um, Ascension as a seminary for the city, which is really a, um, a fancy way of saying that we are a space that cultivates.
Um, a certain kind of soil that enriches the community, the lives of those around us, so that we foster growth all over. And, and so I'm grateful to be there and it's, it's good work that we're doing. And so thanks for having us here on the podcast.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, it's really needed work and just bringing, getting people to think about their spiritual lives in maybe a much different way.
Yeah. That's it. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Okay. Is that good to, just for the intro? Yeah. That's good. Mm-hmm. . Okay.
Caroline: Okay. So now we'll do the body.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. Okay.
Billy: So we'll, um, how do we wanna start? We gonna start it as a
Caroline: Why don't, Hmm.
Why don't we, why don't we start by talking, although, how would that work for your podcast if we're talking about, well, spiritual practices of kindness and compassion?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, we can. Well, we can. You know what we can do? I'm not sure exactly. My mine is very conversational. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so I think it'll work in that.
Okay,
Billy: fabulous. So maybe we do, um, a separate little piece. Mm-hmm. where we talk about where we do, we kind of already do that.
Caroline: We kindness and compassion.
Billy: Yeah. I dunno what you're. I'm just thinking, do we need a separate set of, well,
Caroline: why don't we do the, why don't we just have the conversation and I think we'll know what we need after we have the conversation.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. . Great. Yeah.
Caroline: So I'm so excited to have this conversation today about kindness and compassion. Mm-hmm. and, um, Gordon, let's, let's start with you. Yes. Um, since you have a whole podcast on kindness and compassion, how did you get interested? Um, what, why, why a podcast on kindness and compassion.
Gordon Brewer: Well, it's a, it, it's something that I've been thinking about for, for some time, but I think as much as anything, I think, um, hopefully we can, we can safely say here, post Covid, one of the things that I really noticed in my work as a therapist is that how much people were hurt.
Um, just around being isolated from each other. But then on top of that, we had a whole, this whole phenomenon of the, the George Floyd murder and mm-hmm. and all of the polarization that we're seeing in our country and just around, around the world. And one of the things that I wanted to do was just have conversations with folks around.
How do we live into more kindness and compassion, not only with each other, but with ourselves because we, we have a relationship to ourselves first and then to the world, and so really just learning from other people how they're living into that. And with that comes an intersection I think for most people into the, into the realm of spirituality.
Kind of my purview has been working with people in therapy and psychology and that sort of thing. I wear two hats and then I'm a clergy person in the church, but also, um, You know, work with people that have been through trauma, been through some horrific things in their lives, and really just helping people find much greater sense of contentment and peace in their lives by the different ways they can practice kindness and compassion.
Billy: So you, you mentioned practice, so that's something we are pretty keen on. Mm-hmm. , um, especially in talking about on, on our own podcast, becoming fully alive and. What are the practices? Like what, what maybe what are the practices that you notice? That you are making accessible to people that you work with mm-hmm.
that really is helping them to foster that kindness and compassion and move past the polarization in, in their own
Gordon Brewer: lives. Right. Right. That's a great question. And the thing about it is, is that, So I like to think about the practices is that they are, um, very simple but complicated at times. , I mean, there's just a lot of different avenues and I think that people, when they are, um, when they're really seeking it, um, they have to find something that works for them.
But the things that come to mind, and these are familiar terms that I think a lot of people are hearing. One is mindfulness just being. Self aware and aware of what is going on for you internally, um, of being able. Mindfulness is really, I, I think of it as being able to think about what you're thinking about.
Mm-hmm. and being aware of that and how it's affecting you physically and emotionally and spiritually and that sort of thing. The practices of gratitude are really looking at what you have rather than what you don't have, and really trying, trying to, um, You know, figure out what those things are. The other thing too, or just as simple as this sound is, is just doing simple acts of kindness out in the world.
You know, one, one little thing that, uh, gets started in my town sometimes there's a, we've got a local, um, kind of fast food restaurant called pals, and it's, uh, it's this really kind of quirky kind of drive through kind of thing. But every now and then somebody. Drive up to the drive through and they'll say, let me pay for the person behind me.
Mm-hmm. . And so that just kind of perpetuates itself and that sort of thing. Um, the other thing too, I think in living into kindness and compassion is really getting curious about others. Uh, one, one of the things that can happen. Just in relationships is we can get stuck in this loop of, of criticism and defensiveness.
Mm-hmm. and, and if we become aware of that, we can change that. Change that up instead of becoming defensive when we're faced with something that maybe we don't agree with or faced with criticism of some sort, is to get curious about what is going on with that other person in their life. Yeah. And so being able to ask questions and just get curious with the other person.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Caroline: We've been talking a little bit about the spirit of generosity. Mm-hmm. , so that the assumptions that we make about people, the way that we're curious, that we're being generous in that approach, right? Mm-hmm. , that, that we're assuming the best instead of assuming the worst and, um, And I appreciate that what you're talking about, where you started with around mindfulness and being aware mm-hmm.
of how we're thinking, you know? Mm-hmm. and how we're thinking about how we're thinking. Mm-hmm. and cuz I think that that plays out a whole lot more than, than we know that it does. Mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. the lens in which we're seeing someone or a situation, uh, really has a huge impact on what happens next.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. We, we, we, we all have a filter and, and it's, um, we don't, um, I think when the more we can become aware of our filter, It gives us room to be able to see things from another perspective. Mm-hmm. , I was, I was sharing as, as we're recording this, we were at a, a clergy retreat and we were sharing, uh, in our groups just about some different things around, um, you know, what, what are our vulner vulnerable places?
And, um, you know, the context at which we were sharing it was the scripture just around. Um, Mary Magdalene going to the empty tomb, and what was her experience around that? But one, one of the things, an image, a metaphor that came up for me is that, um, I have this picture that I, I use with clients in my office sometimes, and it's an optical illusion of this and a lot of people have seen it.
It's, uh, if you look at it one way, it looks like an older woman. And if you look at it another way, it looks like a younger. It. And one, one of the things that we have to do in order to see it one way or another is our brain has to make this switch. Mm-hmm. . And so one of the things that I do for fun is ask people, okay, what is it a picture of?
Is it an old woman or is it a young woman? And the truth of the matter is it's not either or. It's both. And it's both and yes. And, and so I think one of the things. Living into kindness and compassion is being willing to embrace the both and rather than the either or.
Caroline: Yes. And, and one thing that I'm finding myself really curious about, and I've been curious about this for a while, is how, and you, you named it quickly earlier.
Um, Our practice of self-compassion. Mm-hmm. , and I really appreciate Kristin Neff's work on this. Mm-hmm. , and she breaks it down into three main things of, do I talk to myself, the way I would talk to someone that I love. Um, a sense of common humanity. Mm-hmm. , um, you know, is. Remembering that I'm not the only one who's ever been through this.
I'm not the only one who's ever had this emotion, um, or felt like this. And then with a sense of a sense of mindfulness mm-hmm. , um, and, and being aware. Of, you know, how we're feeling and, and, and providing ourselves. Mm-hmm. some, some, some empathy around our own feelings. Not being afraid to feel the feelings.
Right. Um, and, and I think it's so interesting what we do as Christians. With self-compassion. Like I've worked with people who really struggled. I mean, my, myself at times. Mm-hmm. struggled with, you know, is it okay to be compassionate towards myself? Mm-hmm. , I mean, is that, is that even Christian? Yes. You know, is that, is that okay?
Mm-hmm. , do you run
Gordon Brewer: into this? Yes. You know, one, one of the things that, um, we can do, and this is something I've had to learn for myself, and we, Caroline and I were having the conversation earlier about the Enneagram and the fact that I'm an Enneagram two and one of the things that two Engram two s can fall into as we can be real in tune with helping others, which the Engram two is the.
Helping others, but we, we don't know how to help ourselves. Mm-hmm. . And one, one, again, a metaphor that I like is if you think about, um, when we fly and you get on a plane, and the first thing they do is go through this safety routine, and the one thing they tell you about that is that the oxygen mask comes down is to put your own on first.
Mm-hmm. . Because if you're not taking care of yourself first, Our ability to take care of others is greatly diminished. Yeah. And so I think that, you know, I think a lot of times we think about as being maybe a little selfish or I'm just thinking about myself, but really if you think about it, it is, is a way of really making sure that we.
Or have our best ability to help others. Um, yeah. Yes.
Caroline: Right. Because if we keep sacrificing ourselves, we really don't have much to authentically mm-hmm. , um, be able, be able to, to offer in terms of kindness or compassion with
Gordon Brewer: other people. Yeah. Yeah.
Billy: Yeah. And I like how you kind of began, um, as we started having this conversation with gratitude mm-hmm.
as, as one of those practices. And, and it seems at as, um, as we were just kind of talking about self-compassion and, and having compassion for others, I just wonder about the practice of being grateful. And, and that sense of gratitude and, and how it might open us to a deeper sense of compassion and even self-compassion.
Mm-hmm. and because it, it orients our attention toward the things that, that are actually helping us flourish as per persons. Yes. Right? Yes. And, and can, um, Maybe Reor reorient us just enough that the thing that, uh, we might be struggling with, um, doesn't consume us. Yes. Doesn't consume our attention. And then from that space of gratitude, we can look back on
Mm-hmm. , whatever that might be, with a certain kind of kindness.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. It's, you know, it's interesting with, uh, my work as a therapist, um, Work with a lot of folks struggling with depression, anxiety, and those kinds of things. And when you think about it, when people are really in the throes of depression or if they're struggling with anxiety, which those two, those two states are go hand in hand.
Mm-hmm. , I mean, it's just that you don't, you very rarely see one without the other, but it's a very much an inward focus. You know, they get consumed with what's going on with themselves. Mm-hmm. and when they can, when they start to heal, you see that shift of focus of being more outward. Yeah. They, they start being able to engage with the world more, engage with others more, and, and also being able to, you know, that whole focus of changing of from what I don't have to what I do have.
Yes. And so, yeah.
Billy: And it cultivate. So gratitude cultivates a certain kind of mindfulness, right? Mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. . And, and the more I become mindful of things for which I am grateful, it, it opens me to a deeper awareness of other people in, in a compassionate way. And, and what I'm, um, just thinking about my own experience, there's, there's a sense in which when I can name the things for which I am grateful.
I become a little bit more sensitive to all the things. That makes it hard for others to be grateful. Mm-hmm. and, and when I can be a little bit curious about how hard it was initially for me to start naming all the things for which I'm grateful mm-hmm. and still do it. I, I know that somebody else might be having that same struggle mm-hmm.
and, and I can remain curious with them, with the spirit of generosity, knowing. Hmm. Maybe there's something I can do to help them shift their orientation toward gratitude. Mm-hmm. , instead of going, that person's driving me crazy. Yes. Mm-hmm. , I, I can't stand when they do that. Mm-hmm. . So instead of entering that space of judgment from that place of gratitude, I begin to think, Hmm, how might I be a conduit?
Gratefulness mm-hmm. so that they too might, uh, enter that space with me and, and we can walk this way together. Right,
Gordon Brewer: right. Yeah. It's a, it's a, one way I think about this as well is. Being able to learn the other person's story. Yeah. Because when you, when you understand what is going on in the background for, for someone, then that, that judgment can kinda, it gives us room to not be so judgmental.
Mm-hmm. , because we understand. What they've been through, what they, what their life has been like. Why, why they might see the world as they see it. Or as I ask my clients a lot of times, as you know, why do, why do you think you are like you are? Yeah. You know, what has, what, what are the things that have happened to you in your life to be able to, to operate in this way?
And the thing about it is, is that most of us, We don't realize it until we start practicing mindfulness and gratitude and those kinds of things. Um, we can, there, there's a little part of our brain called the amygdala and it's there totally to keep us safe and to keep us alive. And what happens is, is that we, when we're traumatized or we, we are, you know, going through hard times or whatever, that part of our brain can kind of take over.
And so we're operating out of fear and out of, um, in a survival mode and when we can get curious with others. That gives them a little more safety and then we can begin to have a conversation and that it's a safe place for them to be and, and, and, and that sort of thing. Yeah.
Billy: It, you know, it really, it really gets that, um, that space is something we create together.
Mm-hmm. , you know, it's not just something we occupy at the same time mm-hmm. , but we're actually cultivating space with others by. , we relate to them. Yes. So kindness, generosity, gratefulness, and so I mean, what you just put your finger on that sense. If, if I can be curious and, and have that spirit of generosity toward another person.
It really opens them to that new vulnerable space that they may have been waiting for. Mm-hmm. , but not quite sure how to enter in. Right, because it wasn't there. And so we create it together. Mm-hmm. and, and as we live into it together, the space that we're creating, it enables us all to experience that deeper aliveness in, in a safe, in that safe space that we are creating.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, yeah. You know, it's kind of. . You know, every time I see you, Caroline, I'm always reminded of Brene Brown . I just, I know you're a big fan as well, but one of the, one of the lines that she uses a lot is the story we tell ourself. Mm-hmm. , but we also tell stories to ourselves about others.
Totally. And so, well, we can get some truth around the story about the. That opens up a whole new possibility. Yes.
Caroline: And you know, one of the things I've been thinking about too though, is we don't always have the privilege of knowing someone else's story. Right? Right. I mean, for a variety of reasons. We may never know.
Um, and it are there ways in which even without getting to know the story, we can still come to the table, come to the conversation. Hold that person, um, with a regard of, of a spirit of generosity and, and with kindness and compassion, even if we don't know mm-hmm. and we may never know.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Billy: Yeah. Cause we, cause we, we can't fully understand another person's story.
No. No matter how, how much they pour their heart open to us. Mm-hmm. . Because it's their story and, and so they share it with us, and if we hold that with them and receive it as they offer it mm-hmm. then, then it does in that nonjudgmental posture enable us to remain curious mm-hmm. and, and actually receive them as they are.
Mm-hmm. , which, which again opens them to. A deeper awareness of who they are. Yes. Um, a deeper awareness of the goodness of life. That's all around us. And, and, and we, again, create a kind of space together and, and, and we all become more fully alive in the process. And, and that's the whole beauty of the spirit of generosity, this curiosity mm-hmm.
and, and being responsible to. That aliveness in others. Mm-hmm. , not just thinking, oh, that's how they are, but just receiving them. Mm-hmm. listening and, and just really, really being curious the whole time. Mm-hmm. and holding them gently. Mm-hmm. .
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yeah. And that to me, that's the essence of kindness and compassion.
Mm-hmm. , I mean, that's just being able to, um, That, that gentleness that you, you speak of is, is really because there's, um, you know, all of us, uh, are, are fragile in different ways and being able to have, um, compassion for that fragility. Am I making a word here? But, um, yeah, and, and I think that's really where, where it starts, where we can really begin to change.
The discourse that we have with people. Mm-hmm. . Um,
Caroline: and I think too, that Jesus has so much to teach us about this. I mean, throughout the gospels,
Billy: that's how you bring up Jesus everywhere. Right. So
Caroline: much to teach. So much to teach is that he, but he's constantly, I mean, compassion is about turning towards Yes.
And, and with a, like a, a warmth in our being and in a sense of just like you're saying, And Billy's saying too gentleness and, um, and, and Jesus turns towards so many people, uh, who everybody else has written off. And, and not only written off, but have justified themselves for not turning towards, it's like, oh, well, I'm not gonna turn towards them.
Like that's, that would make me unclean. Or that. So there's all these ways and we, we still. We have all these ways that we don't turn towards people. Mm-hmm. , um, it's painful to turn towards people who are hurting and suffering and in pain and, and yet that's the example of Jesus over and over again.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
It comes, it comes back down to vulnerability of being able to have the courage to be vulnerable with, with others. Yes. And even, you know, Being able to approach someone that you know is maybe hurting or is, is struggling with life or they're just, they're, they're being outcast by everybody.
Caroline: Well, and this is where I think self-compassion is so incredibly helpful too, right?
Gordon? Is that. Um, when I turn towards someone else's pain and I'm not okay and haven't been present to my own mm-hmm. , it makes it really hurt hard to turn towards because it's going to touch down in my own pain. Oh yeah. We're social creatures. It's how it happens.
Billy: Well, because what we're doing right is we're.
We're turning away from ourselves and our own pain. Mm-hmm. . And so, so before we can turn toward others, we need to turn toward ourselves and just Right. Sort of own it and work through it and find our way through and be gentle toward
Caroline: ourselves. Yes. Mm-hmm. . But, and I guess you're right, that, that it does work both ways in that sometimes we dodge our own pain and suffering by turning towards someone else's.
Mm. and sometimes we don't turn towards other people's pain because somehow some way it's gonna touch down in our own. Right. Right, right. So whatever way you flip the coin mm-hmm. , you do have to turn towards your own pain. Mm-hmm. . And the more you can do so with kindness and compassion. Yeah. Following that example of Jesus that.
The better it's gonna go not only for yourself, but when you turn towards other people. Right. Um, in a genuine place of serving rather than I have to, or I should, or it's the right thing to do. Mm-hmm. . Cause people know when you're turning towards them. Mm-hmm. in a true spirit of generosity with an open, big, open, grateful heart.
Mm. For life versus turning towards their pain cuz they're that like drudgery. Mm-hmm. , you know, like, oh God, I can't believe I have to be doing this right now. Right. And people can feel it regardless of the words that you use.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. And I think that's what, you know, here we are talking about Jesus. I think that's why Jesus drew people in, because people sensed his, his genuineness and the fact that he.
You know, and just embody that, that way of being,
Caroline: that that deep level of care. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Billy: And. And gentleness is a fruit
Caroline: of the spirit. I know. I was thinking the same thing. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. Yes.
Billy: And I love, you know, Paul writes in his letter to Titus, he says, um, let your gentleness be known by all mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. . And, you know, and Paul has a wonderful way of talking about these things. You know, the only, the only place where Paul talks. Competing is to compete in love. Mm-hmm. , the only thing that you need to let everybody know about is your gentleness. Yes. And, and it's just wonderful. You know, these are, these are not prideful things.
These are, these are ordinary practices to which we give our lives as followers of Jesus. Mm-hmm. and, and just good humans in the world. Mm-hmm. that enable. To have, have a shared sense of our humanity to live gently. I mean, I, I think, uh, is it amus, um, uh, live gently while comely with God? Mm-hmm. and gentleness is such a part of what it really means to be human.
Yes.
And
Caroline: Oh, and how we have forgotten that. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Oh, well, let's say, you know, it's how we start out in life. Mm. I mean, that's, that, that is absolutely what we have to have when we're born. Mm. The baby has to be held. Mm-hmm. , and it has to be gazed. The mom and mom and dad need to gaze into the baby's eyes with love and gentleness and kindness, and, and if that doesn't, , then bad things start happening.
Mm-hmm. , and we carry that all the way through our lives. Yeah. I mean, it's, we have this innate desire to connect in that way. Yes. You know, we, we mess it up with a lot of other stuff in lives, in our lives, but at our very core, we have to have that gentleness and that that closeness and the, the, just the, the image of, you know, a mom holding her.
It. Mm-hmm. is, is what we, what we. What we have to have in order to, in order to thrive. In order to thrive.
Caroline: That's what I was thinking too, in order to thrive. Yeah. You know one thing about this too, though, um, Kristen Neff, going back to her work for a minute, her most recent book is called Fierce Compassion.
And she talks about this yin yang of compassion, that we think of it as this gentle, uh, motherly warm, and there is that side of compassion. And we also have to bring in. That other side of compassion, um, that calls sometimes for action, that calls for that tougher love mm-hmm. . Um, and, and it's really that, that creates a wholeness.
Yes. Um, And, and I, I have appreciated even chewing on that.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's a, it's about, you know, it's that balance between being open with people and vulnerable with people, but also having boundaries Yes. To that. Yes. I mean, it's, um, you know, I think about a toddler, you know, a toddler wants to explore and, and get out, but if they don't have those boundaries, don't have, you know, a parent or a caregiver to reign them in.
That can, that can get outta control for them. So we need need those, both the both of those pieces. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , I think it's
Caroline: important. Well, wow. This has been a great conversation.
Billy: I know. It's been fabulous.
Caroline: It's been wonderful, Gordon, thank
Gordon Brewer: you. Yes, yes. Thank you all.
Billy: Thanks for the work that you're doing.
Thanks.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer, Jr.

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Gregg Behr & Ryan Rydzewski | When You Wonder; The Enduring Lessons of Mister Rogers | K&C 20

In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with Gregg Behr and Ryan Rydzewski about their book, “When You Wonder You’re Learning: Mr. Rogers Enduring Lessons for Raising Creative, curious, caring Kids”. They discuss unconventional wisdom of Fred Rogers and what he taught in his PBS program for children (and adults),  “Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood”.   They discuss the importance of teaching children emotional intelligence and how to live into more kindness and compassion.

Meet Gregg Behr & Ryan Rydzewski

Author, Gregg Behr

Gregg Behr, executive director of The Grable Foundation, is a father and children’s advocate whose work is inspired by his hero, Fred Rogers. For more than a decade, he has helped lead Remake Learning—a network of educators, scientists, artists, and makers he founded in 2007—to international renown. Formed in Rogers’ real-life neighborhood of Pittsburgh, Remake Learning has turned heads everywhere from Forbes to the World Economic Forum for its efforts to ignite children’s curiosity, encourage creativity, and foster justice and belonging in schools, libraries, museums, and more. A graduate of the University of Notre Dame and also Duke University, Gregg holds honorary degrees from Carlow University and Saint Vincent College. He’s an advisor to the Brookings Institution and the Fred Rogers Center, and has been cited by Barack Obama and the Disruptor Foundation as an innovator and thought leader.  Visit his website: www.greggbehr.com

Author, Ryan Rydzewski

Ryan Rydzewski is award-winning author, reporter, and speechwriter whose science and education stories span everything from schools to space travel to Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood. A graduate of the University of Pittsburgh, he taught elementary school in south Louisiana before earning an MFA in nonfiction writing from Chatham University.

In addition to his work for nonprofits — reports, speeches, op-eds, and the like he writes feature stories and creative pieces that have appeared in Pittsburgh Magazine, Hippocampus, and elsewhere.

Ryan was born and grew up in Erie, Pennsylvania.  For almost a decade, he has been living in Pittsburgh, where you can find him writing, running, or lounging in the yard with his wife, Jacqueline, and their (very) old-soul beagle, Walter. Visit his website at ryanrydzewski.com

WhenYouWonder.org

The Real Mr. Rogers

If you grew up watching “Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood,” you may remember Fred Rogers as the kind, gentle man who sang songs and told stories about his beloved puppets. But what you may not know is that Mr. Rogers was also a learning scientist who had a deep understanding of how children learn and grow.

When You Wonder, You’re Learning

In their new book, “When You Wonder You’re Learning: Mr. Rogers Enduring Lessons for Raising Creative, curious, caring Kids,” authors Ryan Rydzewski and Greg Behr delve into the lessons that Mr. Rogers left behind and explore why they are still relevant today.

(Being transparent; the link to the book above is an affiliate link. This just means we receive a small commission with no extra cost to you if you use the link. Thanks for using the link!)

As educators and parents themselves, Ryan and Greg understand the importance of fostering a love of learning in children. In a world where there is so much emphasis on testing and standardized measures of success, it can be easy to lose sight of the fact that learning is a process of exploration and discovery. Mr. Rogers’ message of love and compassion is just as important today as it was when he first appeared on our television screens, and his blueprints for learning can help us raise children who are creative, curious, and caring.

Creating a Safe and Welcoming Space

Fred Rogers, the host of “Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood,” was known for his slow, deliberate approach to teaching and learning, which he believed created an atmosphere conducive to learning and exploration. This included creating a safe, welcoming space where questions could be asked and answered and where children felt like they belonged. In their book, “When You Wonder Your Learning: Mr. Rogers Enduring Lessons for Raising Creative, curious, caring Kids,” authors Ryan Rydzewski and Greg Behr explore the importance of this approach to learning, particularly in an era where there is so much focus on testing and standardization. They also discuss the concept of deep listening and loving speech, which is essential for creating an atmosphere of acceptance and growth.

Conclusion

If you’re a fan of Mr. Rogers or are simply looking for ways to support your children’s learning and growth, this book is must-read. Ryan and Greg’s insights and insights from learning scientists around the world offer a fresh perspective on how to approach education and parenting in the 21st century. It’s a great place to start in teaching our kids the importance of kindness and compassion in an increasingly polarized world.

 

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Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast and I'm really happy for you all to get to know today, Ryan Zeki and Greg Bayer, uh, who have a book that I think you really are gonna wanna learn about and that book. And their book is When You Wonder, you're learning. Mr. Rogers enduring lessons for raising creative and Curious and Caring Kid. So welcome Ryan and Greg.
Ryan Rydzewski: Thank you so much for having us. We're happy to be here.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Um, so as I start with most everyone, tell folks a little bit about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Ryan Rydzewski: Sure. So, uh, this is Ryan. Um, my name is Ryan Zeki. I am a, uh, science and education writer, and I'm also a former elementary school teacher. So how did I end up here working on a book with Greg? Uh, well, . I taught fourth and fifth grade down in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And I eventually made my way back home to Pittsburgh, which is of course the real life home of, of Fred Rogers.
Uh, and that's where Greg and I started working, um, together on some pieces about the science of learning. So in the pr in the work that we're privileged to do for the Grayville Foundation, which Greg is the head of, um, a lot of our work has to do with figuring out what are we learning about learning itself.
and we talk to scientists, we talk to expert educators. We read academic articles from places right here in Pittsburgh, like Carnegie Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh, but also further afield from universities all over the country and the world. And what we realized over time in doing that was that when you talk to.
Learning scientists and when you talk to educators and you talk to parents, they're not talking about learning so scientifically, right? I think we expected lots of charts and graphs and numbers and and technical terminology, but instead they're asking questions like, how do we make sure kids feel safe?
How do we make sure kids feel that they belong to a community that cares about them? Uh, how do we make them feel? As Fred Rogers used to say that they are loved and capable of loving. And we like to say that, you know, in listening to these lectures and meeting these scientists and reading these papers, they started to sound to us like Scripps from Mr.
Rogers neighborhood. And that's really, uh, where this whole process, uh, began with that. Aha. .
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. .
Greg Behr: Yeah. And hi everyone. I'm Greg Bear. I'm the co-author with Ryan of this book entitled When You Wonder, you're Learning. I'm a Western Pennsylvania kid, as is Ryan, which is maybe all that you really ultimately need to know about us
Um, because like Fred Rogers we're, um, products of these western Pennsylvania Hills. I've been working in the field of education for two decades now. And also like Ryan, I'm a. . And so we bring sensibilities to this book as educators, as parents, and as Ryan said, have a chance in this book to represent Fred Rogers.
Not just as that loving, caring individual that so many of us got to experience on the other side of our television set, but as a remarkable learning scientist who was decades ahead of his time and who left for us some blueprints for learning that matter more to us, maybe more than they did during Fred's time.
Uh, and certainly 20 years after his passing maybe mean more to us in this moment right now than ever before.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. It, it's, it's interesting because as I was putting this podcast together, when I started it previously this year, I remember as I was getting the copy together for the website, I was going back and reading, um, a little book that I've.
Called The Wisdom of Mr. Rogers. I think, uh, I don't know if you've run across that book. It's on my shelf back here somewhere. I can't remember the, the, um, who, who edited that, but it's just quotes from Fred Rogers. And so I, I, I, I pulled from that and then, Then the movie came out, I can't remember when the movie came out.
I guess it was year before last, something like
Greg Behr: that. Yeah. Now which movie? Because there's Morgan Neville's amazing documentary and then there's the biopic starring Tom
Gordon Brewer: Hanks. Yes. I was thinking about the, the one with Tom Hanks and Yeah. And so I was just enthralled by it and um, yeah, so. It's, it's interesting how it, it brings, brings you guys into my life and just thinking about all of this and just so I know there's a lot of different places we could start with this, but what have you guys learned so far and what was the inspiration behind the book?
A little more about that. Yeah, I, I.
Ryan Rydzewski: Are what we really have come to see Fred in almost a new light. So Greg mentioned, you know, we grew up here in Western Pennsylvania. We grew up watching the neighborhood on television. We have that emotional connection to Fred that almost anybody who ever watched him shares right.
and I think, you know, you mentioned the movies with, with Tom Hanks, we tend to think of Fred as this nice guy in a sweater. Mm-hmm. , which he absolutely was. But what we try to do with this book is figure out, well, how did Fred do what he did? How did Fred make so many people feel that way? So many people from so many different walks of life, from so many different generations for so many decades in a row.
Is there a method to what Fred. , and if so, what do those blueprints look like and how can we, you know, 20 years after Fred himself passed away? Apply those lessons and follow Fred's blueprints in our schools and at home and in museums and libraries and all the places where we, uh, and where our young people learn.
So we really have come to see Fred, um, as a scientist, because he really was a scientist. As Greg will tell you, he studied with some of the top minds of his generation, and he put those lessons to work in Mr. Rogers. .
Greg Behr: Right. Well, and that's the thing, Gordon, we've, we have the privilege now with adult eyes and adult minds to look back at what it is that Fred did because so many of us met him with our little kid eyes, right?
Mm-hmm. and developed that emotional attachment often si oftentimes sit sitting alongside siblings or parents or others and as adults to look back at what it is that Fred did is an incredible. There are many interesting parts about Fred's story before the neighborhood even hits the air. One of the most amazing parts is this, Fred was studying at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary.
and it was during his time at the seminary that he decided he wanted to use that newfangled technology of television to minister to kids. Right. He saw what was attractive to kids and said, what if we made this good and constructive in a way that was helpful in their lives? Mm-hmm. , and it was his teachers at the seminary that said, well, Fred, if you're gonna do.
you better learn something about child development theory and practice, which ideally is something that any teacher, any youth worker, any librarian, anyone who's in the caring professions for kids hears at some point. Mm-hmm. , and this is where Fred ended up in a place called the Arsenal Family in Children's Center here in Pittsburgh.
It was a chance for him to sort of learn in an environment. And this environment, it turns out, was stack. with a 20th century Mount Rushmore of child development, psychologists, psychiatrists, and pediatricians. There was a remarkable happenstance of the people who happened to be here in Pittsburgh, the 1950s and sixties.
So there are folks like Benjamin Spock, the doctor whose book Baby and Child, child Care, one of the bestselling books of all time in American Publishing history. Probably everyone listening here either has a copy in their home. Their aunt or uncle or grandparents have a copy in their house. You can still walk into bookstores today and find that book on the shelves.
There are folks like Eric Erickson, pediatricians like Brazelton coming through, and most importantly as, uh, we've come to appreciate was the work of Margaret McFarland, who's a psychiatrist at the University of Pittsburgh, who became Fred's lifelong mentor and dear friend. So we mentioned this experience about being an arsenal because their Fred was among a world-class.
Of experts around what we were learning at the time about learning and about child development theory and practice, and he absorbed all of that. Fred was like a sponge, and you see he took what he absorbed in that setting. and he applied it to puppetry, to lyrics, to a wardrobe, to a physical set, to everything that he did.
It was deliberate and intentional and in so many ways, Fred was a scientist. And today, in, in the language of, of contemporary times, we would describe him as a learning scientist. A scientist who was studying how we learn. , but we didn't use that phrase 40 and 50 years ago. But that's exactly what Fred was and that's what today we can see as adults, looking back at the work that he did over the many decades mm-hmm.
that we saw his program on, that television set, and Gordon, he made it so easy, so seamless. Mm-hmm. that we didn't recognize it, but now we can go back and unpack it. And that's what Ryan and I try and do in this.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. I, I've got to, um, got to delve into that because I, I, you know, one of the things, um, as a therapist, I remember some of the courses I enjoyed the most were the human development courses and early Childhood Development courses.
Although as a therapist, I don't really work with kids, I, uh, as my daughter used to say when she was little, I sucked at playing Barbies. So , I didn't . Yeah, I didn't really, uh, I didn't really. Don't make the connection like Fred Rogers did. But, you know, one of the things that I remember about him, um, and I, I remember watching him, you know, as a little kid and you know, kind of growing up with him is that he slowed things down a lot.
Mm-hmm. . And that, that to me is something that we can really learn from. And that hit the, the whole pace of his, his programming and just the. Just the y you know, really during the time period, really some radical stuff. I mean, the, there's the whole, um, the whole scene with the, uh, I forget the actor's name who was played, the, uh, policeman who was black.
Brad Flock. Yeah. And, um, they, um, You know him, they're putting their feet in the pool together. Mm-hmm. was huge. Huge. It's
Ryan Rydzewski: so, it's sort of amazing, you know, when we went back to look at the neighborhood as adults, you know, we watched, I don't know how many episodes to put this book together, how much quiet space there is, uh, for not only for a television show, but for a children's television show.
You know, I used to be a teacher and I would, I hated to have blank space or unaccounted board time in my classroom. Cause I was worried about what was going to. Fred really trusted kids to stick with him, and in fact, we, there's a short, uh, aside in the book, uh, sort of analyzing the way Fred put his program together, and Fred only allowed two cuts per minute of footage on his program.
So that's roughly a cut every 30 seconds. in modern television, modern children's television, you see cuts every three to five seconds. So it was radically slower. There's a lot of quiet time. There are scenes in Mr. Rogers neighborhood of Fred literally sitting there and watching paint dry. He loved to give kids time to think.
He loved to give kids time to wonder. Um, he would give them something to think about and then he wouldn't press them for an answer right away. He would just let them sort of sit and marinate and wonder. and, um, I think that we're, to a certain degree missing that and, and media, both for children and adults today.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , uh, it's hyper fast. Um, I think that's also a reflection of social media as well. Fred trusted us. He knew that it was in those quiet moments that we would come to know ourselves, know our neighbors, and ultimately become, you know, the best of, of whoever we are. Right, right. And I think it's
Greg Behr: important for us to notice that Fred wasn't slow for the sake of being.
For him in so many ways. It was a tactical approach to building as he described it, atmosphere for learning. Mm-hmm. . And it wasn't just about creating that space where you could wonder, maybe even struggle and certainly notice things, but it was also about creating a space where you felt like you were safe, where your questions might be heard and respected, where you felt like you might belong.
There were a whole set of ingredients. , essentially Fred approached to developing that atmosphere for learning on his program and that pacing is just one of them.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So one, one of the things I was thinking about as you were saying that Greg is, um, the, not only the slowing, the slowing down of things, but also the, um, the curiosity that he used with everything.
And one of the things that in doing this podcast and just in working with people in therapy, and particularly I do a lot of work with couples, is when you c when a person can move from being critical of the other to mo moving, to being curious of the other, everything changes. and that that, that, that is in my mind where kindness and compassion lips is where we can and, and I think, um, yeah.
Do you wanna say more about that? I mean, that was just kind of a thought that came to me as you were talking about those
Greg Behr: things. Well, I'll just say briefly and then Ryan, I'll turn to you because it makes me think of one of the chapters in our book, of which they're six and one of 'em focuses on communications.
And we really, uh, attend to what it was that Fred did and meant when he talked about deep listening and loving speech, right? Mm-hmm. . And according to your comments, deep listening and loving speech does not happen. Unless you're in an atmosphere where there is some stillness mm-hmm. , where you actually can hear process struggle with those thoughts.
And it's about, um, creating that atmosphere that allows for, for Ryan that deeper listening and loving speech. Yes. Yes.
Gordon Brewer: Ryan, did you heard a comment about that? Yeah. No, no. Go ahead. . No, I was gonna say, uh, I was just curious about your thoughts about that. I mean, from your perspective as well. Yeah. Um,
Ryan Rydzewski: it, it's interesting, I think Fred, Fred saw acceptance.
Mm-hmm. feeling accepted as sort of a precondition for growth. And, and you've probably seen this in your, in your therapy practice, Gordon, you know, Fred used to say, people don't change very much when all they have is a finger pointed in their face, right? Mm-hmm. people change. People only change in relation to somebody who loves them, and I.
What Fred was trying to do and what we've hoped, hopefully we've elaborated his methods in this book, was help engineer that feeling of acceptance and letting his viewers know that someone, even if it was just Fred, even if it was just one guy on a screen, accepted him exactly as they are right now. Now, that doesn't mean he told viewers that they're perfect or that everything they thought or said or did was was okay.
It only meant that he recognized. . Every human being is worthy of attention and every human being, despite all the flaws and strengths and hopes and fears that that person has, that person is worthy of the neighborhood that we all share. Mm-hmm. , I think Fred understood, and Fred was probably ahead of his time in understanding.
That in order for us to grow, in order for us to learn, in order for us to change, we need to feel that too. And in many ways, you know, Mr. Roger's neighborhood was a 40 year sermon on, on somebody out there accepts us. Somebody out there is telling us that we are okay just the way we are right now. Yes. .
Gordon Brewer: Yes.
Yeah. Um, there's a, I think there's a quote from St. Francis of Assisi is that, um, um, and not to throw too much of my own, I guess religious views into things, but is, um, he, he said, preach the gospel always and when necessary, use the word use words. So I'm paraphrasing the quote, but, uh, and when I think about Fred Wa Rogers and what he lived into with just, yeah, again, his background as a minister, um, really emulated what all of that should be about.
Ryan Rydzewski: That was, that quote was a favorite of Fred's. And you could see it. I mean, you could watch every episode of Mr. Roger's neighborhood and not know necessarily that he was a minister. And it wasn't that he was being deceptive. It wasn't that he was tricking us. I just think that the neighborhood was his distillation of, of what most world religions share, which is that sense that like we are here for one another as human beings.
And our job, you know, of Kurt vni used to say, we're here to help each other through this thing, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. and I, I see that philosophy at work in Mr. Rogers neighborhood as. .
Gordon Brewer: Awesome, awesome. So, I know, um, I, I want to be mindful of our time, but, um, could you all give us a quick kind of, uh, overview of the book?
Just kind of walk, walk us through kind of what's there.
Greg Behr: That's right. Well, right at the opening of the book is a Beautiful Ford by Mrs. Rogers, Fred's wife, Joan. and Joanne was a great champion for this book and a, a real supporter for the two of us, and, um, was instrumental together with colleagues who'd been part of Fred's career for decades in helping us to unpack the work that it is that Fred did.
So it begins with this beautiful forward by Joanne. And then you have six chapters that variously focus on a general theme, the first of which is curiosity, the second of which is creativity and continuous forward. More or less each chapter. , whether you're familiar with Mr. Rogers neighborhood or not, and if you are, it'll emotionally connect you because we ground you in the work that Fred did.
Oftentimes expressing that through an episode and in a a and a vi vignette that's sort of expressive of the concept for that chapter. And then what we try and do. Is connect what Fred did all of those years ago to things that were learning about learning itself. Ryan and I had a chance to review, I don't know if it's an opportunity or a burden, but to review all sorts of journal articles and other research pieces from Carnegie Mellon University, from m i t, from Stanford and beyond.
And then ideally we put that research in plain English in a way that connects what Fred. To what we're learning today about learning itself and the learning sciences demonstrate how Fred did that all of those years ago in incredibly practical ways and in that sense of practicality. in each chapter then are examples in classrooms, in libraries, in museums, in all sorts of learning settings that you could imagine in your community where people are essentially applying what we described as the Fred Method.
You know, taking what Fred did all of those years, years ago, doing it in a way commensurate with what. Learning scientists tell us we ought to be doing for kids and then ending each chapter with things that you and I can do. It's certainly not meant to be parenting or teaching for dummies, but what we have the privilege to do is curate examples from around the world where people are applying the Fred Method in in small little ways that any one of us can do.
and that's essentially what readers will find in the book. It's, it's written for parents, for new parents, for teachers, librarians, anyone who, who is in the care of children to make use of, of, as Joanne described. , the blueprints for learning that this book lays out.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, yes. I I'm really looking forward to delving into the book.
I, I, I, I probably confession here, should have read the book before I interviewed you guys, but, um, yes. Well now we peaked your interest, haven't you? Yes, you have. You have. It's, it's a, it's moved up in. In my reading list now. But, um, you know, the other thing, uh, that, um, that occurs to me as we're thinking about this, I think the most valuable thing that Mr.
Rogers taught was taught kids or, uh, and adults for that matter, the, the importance of emotional intelligence, of being able to know how to self-regulate and, and handle things. on an emotional level, but also an intellectual level at the same time.
Ryan Rydzewski: Yeah. I mean, there's that favorite or famous song of his, what do you do with the mad that you feel, you know?
Yes. Which is really about what you just mentioned. Mm-hmm. , I, I think Fred. , you're right. Fred really did teach kids the importance of self-control, of emotional intelligence. But I think Fred also went one step further, which is a step that we often forget as adults. So I, I think we all like to tell children, you know, that you, you need to keep your hands to yourself.
You need to keep your voice down or whatever it is that it was. But Fred always reminded children that they're big feelings. That they're big feelings that can be so overwhelming when you're at that. we're okay. It's okay to be scared. Mm-hmm. , it's okay to be, um, insecure. It's okay to be sad. It's okay to grieve.
Um, Fred always paired his sort of modeling of, of self-control and emotional intelligence with that reminder that the feelings you're having are humans. The feelings you're having are okay. There are caring adults around you who will help you work through them, and it's how you deal with them. That's what's I.
Yes. Well,
Greg Behr: and Ryan, you use, you just essentially used the word humanity and Ryan, isn't that at the core of Fred Roger's work a deep and profound respect for humanity beginning in the earliest of years, and that all of us from our lifetimes as young children to. Ideally, um, wisened adults, right? That we have layers of social, emotional and academic growth.
And he was way ahead of his time in, in, in respecting and understanding the integration of those in the, in the nuances and layers of every single human being. And he respected childhood to know that that's a profound start in that lifelong. .
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. . Yes. Yes. And I think he, the, the other thing that he, I think he changed, um, was.
Was moving, moving childhood. You said humanity of really just seeing, seeing children as other humans, not just as these things that are over that we. , you know, that, uh, I'm trying to think the words to put to that, but you know, I know there was a shift where children were kind of seen as property or kind of, kind of seen as this something that adults owned and that, um, they were of no value with their insight or whatever they might provide until they reached a certain age.
And, um, . Yeah. And so I think what, what, well,
Greg Behr: and to para, to paraphrase Fred, I won't get this quotation right. Mm-hmm. , I mean, he essentially said he respected childhood and knew and appreciated how distinct it is from other phases of our life. But to your point, Gordon, he, he essentially said, you know, kids aren't just vessels that you open up their head and pour things into it.
Mm-hmm. , they come with those layers of social and emotional and cognitive growth. Mm-hmm. and we grownups do best by tending to those continuously. . Um, and together.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. Well, this is, this is fascinating stuff and I, I wish we had had more time to, to. Delve into this more. Now I, hopefully I can get you guys back on again so we can talk some more about this because I think this hits at the core of where we can live into more kindness and compassion, particularly through our educational systems and how we, how we, how we communicate with kids, and how we help them help them.
you know, throughout their lifetime. So, um, well tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they want to, and, um, if they wanna learn more from you.
Ryan Rydzewski: Sure. So they can visit our website@whenyouwonder.org. Uh, we post some updates there from time to time. They can also sign up for our newsletter, which, uh, has events and some musings about Fred and some interesting links to Fred, like things mm-hmm.
Um, and you can also reach out to us, to us directly. Uh, we're available at when you wonder. gmail.com. We'd love to hear from readers. We'd love to hear from prospective readers. Mm-hmm. , uh, we'd love to hear from fans of Fred. Probably the most satisfying and and fun part of getting out on the road, whether virtually or in person to talk about this book, is to hear about how much Fred still means to so many people, uh, and what a guiding force he is in so many people's lives, uh, whether they think about him in that way or not.
A lot of times when we, we talk about that book, Come to us and say, Hey, you know, I've been doing this thing in my classroom and I think this is really Fred. Like, and that's right. And we started to curate more and more of those examples, um, which folks can find, uh, when they sign up for our newsletter.
Awesome.
Greg Behr: Awesome. And Gordon, you can find our book, you know, ask at the local library, ask at your local bookstore, wherever it is that you find books, uh, whether that's ordering online or walking down to the neighborhood shop. Um, you can find when you wonder
Gordon Brewer: you. . Awesome. Awesome. And we'll have links here in the show notes and the show summary for folks to, to, to find things easily again, the book is When You Wonder, you're Learning.
Mr. Rogers Enduring Lessons for Raising Creative, curious, and Caring Kids. Ryan and and Greg, thank you so much for being with me today.
Ryan Rydzewski: Thanks for having us. It's been a pleasure.
Greg Behr: Ah, thanks and thanks for being such a kind neighbor. Thanks.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Jay Mills | A Story of Transformation and Finding Peace | K&C 18

 

In this episode Gordon talks with The Rev. Jay Mills about his life journey of transformation and how he has changed his mind and values over the years. Jay shares how his life changed through his involvement in a 12-step program and his reconciliation with his past.  Gordon has known Jay for close to 20 years. Jay was originally one of Gordon’s priests. Gordon is currently a clergy person in the Episcopal church and Jay is retired. As Jay tells his story you will find his life is an example of kindness and compassion.

Jay Mills Early Years

The Rev. Jay Mills was raised in a middle-class home with parents that were reasonably good parents. And I ended up getting sexually assaulted when I was 12 years old, and my life very quickly unraveled. Jay started doing drugs and alcohol heavily. He ended up being addicted very young. He was also a really angry kid with a lot of violence. He lived that way until he was about 21, where he went through a conversion through the ministries of Campus Crusade for Christ. While he does not agree with their theology now, he says “I owe them my life cause as I’ve often said, if I waited for the Episcopal Church to evangelize me, I’ve died in a drug house.

He was a camp counselor not long after that. He had an experience that where he oversaw several kids. They were in the back of his car, and they flipped off a local guy. And the guy followed him into Burger King. He wanted to fight. “I just looked at him and I said, “I can fight you. I’m a Christian.” Jay says at that moment he understood exactly what Jesus was talking about. Bless your enemies. Jesus was calling me to be a person of peace.

Gun Culture in America

Understanding the virtues of humility, love, and joy, and humility have been transformative in his life. for me. In my later years was the American gun culture. He went through a lent where he didn’t carry and found it really freeing. Through that experience he ended up selling all his guns. Getting rid of them was very freeing. “There’s just too much killing going on in the United States … and Jesus really did call me to be a person of peace…”

Jay’s Process of Change

“If the Jesus movement in which I was converted, had a dark side, it evolved very quickly into conservative politics.” He assumed that he had to partake in that “dark side”, and it didn’t fit. Jay describes himself as “a campus radical wannabe in the sixties and early seventies.” He never fit that very well and has slowly grown out of it. One of the biggest changes he made was in gay and lesbian people. Jay was reported to the head of the Integrity chapter, which was the gay and lesbian group in the Episcopal church at the time about 15 years ago now. Jay had an interchange with a parishioner who was gay. The head of the group and Jay met. At the time, Jay believed homosexuality was a sin. And despite our differences, we became friends. I was challenged during our meeting to do my research.

In seminary, Jay learned to read Hebrew and Greek. So, he did his research. And to his surprise, it changed his mind. He came to believe that we’ve been wrong about homosexuality. Those passages that report being anti-gay are not necessarily that way when read in the original Greek or when read in context or in when read with their culture in mind.

As Jay explains, the story of Sodom and Gamora is not about gay love. It’s about rape. And the lack of hospitality of the people of Sodom and Gamora. And that hospitality to this day is one of the cardinal virtues of the Middle East. And the condemnation in Romans has more to do with the worship of the god’s sibling than homosexuality. Jay had promised his friend, “If I ever changed my mind I would go to bat for them.” And he did and for several years. At the Dawson Conventions, every year he would end up speaking in favor of changing our mind about it.

The Process of Making Peace

Gordon asked Jay a Question about the process of making peace with yourself. Jay said “It’s interesting. I am. A member of a 12-step group having to do with alcohol and drugs. I was working with a sponsor and I always had a lot of anger and rage and it came through spiritually and emotionally in my ministry, unfortunately, from time to time, and he and I were working on the steps.”

Jay continues “If you don’t know the steps, the four steps you write down all the things you’ve done. Basically, the resentments you have, the things you’ve done. Eventually, you get to the people you’ve hurt in the fifth and sixth steps. And he had a dog that he’d rescued from the fights, a pit bull, and she wanted nothing to do for me.”

Jay notes “She could read all that anger and rage that I carried around in me. And at the very end of working the fourth and fifth and sixth steps, we knelt down to pray. And that dog came up and leaned up against me because unbeknownst to me, God had lifted all that rage and anger out of me. Cuz I, I, when I was a young man, I would beat people till they quit moving.”

After working through those steps and the prayer Jay expressed “And it just, it’s never been there since. It’s, God simply took it.”

Jay said he thinks the first thing to recognize is that it almost always it comes out of trauma in childhood. In that case, he usually refers them to a therapist who can really help them work with it. Another option is a 12-step group if they have an alcohol or drug addiction problem. 12-step groups are a great place, to work on all that because the steps really strip you down and make you face yourself. And you don’t carry that garbage around with you anymore. There are solutions and “you don’t have to go around mad at the world.”

Wrestling with Fears

“I still wrestle with the fears.” Jay was reading Richard Ross commentary on the Sermon on the Mount. The first five chapters are the historical background to the Ministry of Jesus. He said he’s got a list of things he affirms. One of those is that God is on your side. One of the later ones is that everything is heading somewhere good. Ross makes the comment that the world is a safe place. Jay said “And I semi-believe that. I also believe that it could be a very dangerous place. And that’s where the promises of the call of Jesus to love those who persecute you to love your enemies. Where the rubber really meets the. I don’t want to have someone slap me on the face and have to turn the other cheek.”

Jay continues, “I fear it. But I, but that’s what I’m called to. And ultimately I’ve found whatever traumatic things happen to me, God uses them as gifts for serving other people in the end. So, I can face the fears with a certain amount of hope that God will do something good.”

In the AA and NA and other 12-step groups, the premise is that if you’re going to get sobriety, you’re going to have to give it away and help other people and help other people in other ways besides just. Self-centered fears are at the core of all the stuff that drives us. Jay says he was one of the “baddest guys on the block” as a young adolescent and early 20-year-old and was scared all the time. “Nobody knew it and I couldn’t afford to help other people. I can now, I can learn to go beyond myself, and my self-centered fears, and reach out.”
Ways to live with more compassion and Kindness

Jay wants us to practice kindness towards ourselves. The kind of kindness that God practices. Jay thinks an awful lot of American religion sees God as an ogre waiting to swat them down. “I just don’t believe that God is revealed except in a few places in the Bible that I just don’t pay attention to.” Actually, there’s a saying in the 12-step programs, “Fake it till you make it.” Act compassionate until you feel compassionate. There are actions that drive our feelings, not the other way around. When we’re stuck in fear-based stuff, our feelings drive our actions. But to learn to act first and let the feelings follow, which Jay says is vital.

Another way to live with compassion and kindness is to avoid isolation. Because our minds can conjure up all kinds of fears and self-doubt that have no connection to reality whatsoever. And then we can get stuck in ourselves and lose the compassion and mercy that we are called to live.

“Where religion is important, where Christianity and all of that is that there’s an, there’s a different way of living into it, of understanding.
And anytime you see the words “belief in, I believe or belief in” in the New Testament, read the word “trust” and it’ll completely revolutionize how you read the New Testament.

Although officially “retired” Jay is currently serving as an Associate Rector at St. Margaret’s Episcopal Church in Waxhaw, NC.  Jay helps with pastoral care and still enjoys teaching, Biblical research, and occasional fly fishing.  He and his wife Karen have two adult children,  and 5 grandchildren.

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[00:00:00] Jay Mills: Okay. Hi, I'm Jay Mills. I'm happy to be on the Kindness and Compassion broadcast with Gordon Brewer and talk about some things that have happened in my life.
[00:00:18] Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so glad and really very thankful that my good dear friend, the Reverend j Mills is with me here today. Welcome, Jay. Thank you. Glad to be here. Yes. And so Jay and I have probably known each other probably close to 20 years. Is that, would that be our Yeah, 94.
Yeah. So we've known each other a long time and been through a lot together. Just, uh, when Jay was, uh, Jay was, uh, originally one of my priests in the past. And, um, as I've shared on other shows, I'm, I'm a clergy person in the Episcopal church and Jay is retired. We're going back to working, but, um, I'm gonna let Jay kind of tell his story because I think one of the things that I know about Jay is, is that his story very much lives into this whole concept of kindness and compassion.
So, Jay, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed. How
[00:01:22] Jay Mills: far, far back you
[00:01:23] Gordon Brewer: want me to go? Yeah. . So you start where you feel like you wanna
[00:01:27] Jay Mills: start. Okay. Well, I, I, um, was raised in a middle class home, uh, with parents that were re reasonable good parents. Um, And I ended up getting sexually assaulted when I was 12 years old, and my life very quickly unraveled.
I started doing drugs heavily and alcohol, and ended up being addicted very, very young and was also a really angry kid with a lot of violence. And, um, was that way until, until I was about 21, where I went through a conversion through the ministries of Campus Crusade for Christ, which is a very fundamentalist campus organization.
Uh, I don't agree with her theology at all now, but I owe them my life. Cause as I've often said, if I waited for the Episcopal Church to evangelize me, I've died in a drug house. , um, sadly. Mm-hmm. . It was, it was the real deal. I, I, uh, one of the stories I tell about the change that happened in me, I was a camp counselor not long after that, and I was in charge of several kids who were in the back of my car and they flipped off a local guy, uh, in this camp, conference center town called Romney.
And the guy followed me into a, into a. Burger King, I think, and, uh, wanted to fight. I just looked at him and I said, I can fight you. I'm a c. Um, and, and I understood exactly what Jesus was talking about in, in the lessons for this coming, uh, all Saint Sunday. Bless your enemies. A player for those who persecute you.
Um, uh, he, he was calling me to be a person of of peace. Umhmm . And, um, I've, I've had good days in that. I've had bad days in that. Um, and, um, I've undergone a pretty significant change in the last year, um, primarily, uh, through the auspices of the Anglican or Episcopal Society in St. Francis. Uh, I'm affiliating as a third order Franciscan, which is a lay order of Franciscan's, and they, they stress the three.
Virtues of, of, um, uh, humility, love, and joy, uh, which are humility. Part I, I've got pretty well, the love part, I've got less well and the joy part I have to really struggle with. Mm-hmm. . Um, but it's, it's been transformative for me. Um, I was one, one of the things I drifted back into, In my later years was, was the gun culture at America.
And, um, went through a lent where I, where I didn't carry, um, and found it really freeing and ended up selling all my guns and, and tickled to death to be done with them. There's just too much killing going on in the United States and I don't wanna be. Uh, and, and Jesus really did call me to be a person of peace, and that doesn't include that mm-hmm.
So that, that, that was a, that's, that's been a big change in the last year. Yeah.
[00:04:50] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. That's about it. Yeah. Well, it's a, And knowing, and as I mentioned at the beginning, and knowing you, Jay, for as long as I've known you, I've kinda seen your transformation, um, from when you first came where Jay was. Had lived here in the same town that I live in Kingsport, Tennessee.
And, um, our area is a fairly conservative, uh, pretty right wing area here. Oh, yeah. And, and I know that you went through some other transformations and just kind of changing your mind about some of those conservative views and. Ways of seeing things. Um, do you mind sharing just kind of what that process was like for you and some of the things that kinda led to that change of mind?
[00:05:37] Jay Mills: Well, if the, if the, the Jesus movement in which I was converted. Had a dark side. It, it evolved very quickly into conservative, uh, conservative politics rather. Uh, and I made the assumption that I had to partake in that mm-hmm. and it didn't fit. I was, uh, campus radical wannabe in, in the sixties and early seventies.
Uh, and I never fit that very well and, I've slowly grown out of it and been willing to grow out of it. Um, and the, the, one of the biggest changes I made was in the area of gay and lesbian people. Um, I, I was reported to the head of the Integrity chapter, which was the gay and lesbian group in the Episcopal church at the time, Oh, about 15 years ago now.
A, as I had had an interchange with a parishioner who was gay. And, um, the head of the group and I met and we became, in spite of our differences, I, I thought homosexuality was a sin. And, uh, in spite of our differences, we became friends. And she challenged me during ent. ENT seems to be always the time when I do all this big changing.
Mm-hmm. challenged me during lent to do the research. Again, I was for. In seminary, I got to learn to read Hebrew and Greek, um, and did the research. Left wing research, right wing research, exo Jesus of the passages. And to my surprise, changed my mind. Um, and came to believe that we've been wrong about homosexuality and that those passages that report to be, um, Anti-gay are not necessarily that way when red in the original Greek or when red in context.
Culturally. Um, for example, the story of Sodom and Gamora is not about gay love. It's about rape. Um, and, and, and the lack of hospitality of the people of, of Sodom and Gamora. And, and that's hospitality to this day is the, one of the cardinal virtues of the Middle East. Um, And the, the, the condemnation in Romans, in the beginning of Romans, uh, I, I think that has more to do with the worship of the god's sibling than the, than than homosexuality.
Mm-hmm. . Um, and I promised my friend our very first conversation, If I ever changed my mind, I, I would go to bat for them. And I did and, uh, for, for several years was on the other side of it than my bishop. And at Dawson Conventions, every year would end up speaking in favor of changing our mind about it and mm-hmm.
and he would not relent and we managed to remain friends because I'm, I, by then, I'd learn to not be so aggressive and, and. And spiritually, emotionally violent when I said and did things. Um, but it was a, it was a huge transformation.
[00:08:47] Gordon Brewer: Yes.
[00:08:47] Jay Mills: Yes. So it was funny. I'd always been blessed with gay friends.
Mm-hmm. . Um, but I didn't know the barrier that that had put up. I, I made amends to all my gay friends and, and it, it changed the relationships enormously with a couple of them.
[00:09:03] Gordon Brewer: Right. Yeah. So that's kind of the Ulta. How did, um, I don't, I don't know. You, you might have kind of answered this question, but when I think about kindness and compassion, I guess the word peace comes to to mind.
But what, how did you, what was the, the process of making peace with yourself about kind of those past things plus how you handle 'em now?
[00:09:30] Jay Mills: Well, it's interesting. I, I am. Uh, a member of a 12 step group having to do with alcohol and drugs, and I was working with a sponsor and I always had a lot of anger and rage and it, and it came through, uh, spiritually and emotionally in my ministry, unfortunately, from time to time, and he and I were working on the steps.
If you don't know the steps, the four steps, you, you write down all the, all the things you've done. Basically the, the resentments you have, the things you've done, um, the, eventually you get to the people you've hurt in, in the fifth and sixth step. Um, and he had a dog that. He'd rescued from the fights, a pit bull, and she wanted nothing to do for me.
She could read all that anger and rage that I carried around in me. And, um, at the very end of working the fourth and fifth and sixth step, we knelt down to pray. And that dog came up and leaned up against me because unbeknownst to me, God had lifted all that rage and anger out of me. Cuz I, I, when I was a young man, I would beat people till they quit moving.
Mm. Um, and it just, it's never been there since. It, it's, God simply took it.
[00:10:48] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love hearing that story. I, I know that that's, uh, quite a transformation for you Oh, as you've, Yeah. Yeah. And, and so in your work with people as a, as a pastor and as, um, as a priest, if, if a person is maybe struggling with some of the same things, what sort of, how do you, how do you kind of work with them in, in kind of reconciling a lot of this?
[00:11:18] Jay Mills: Um,
I think the first thing to recognize that almost always it comes outta trauma in childhood. Mm-hmm. , in my opinion. Um, and to begin to, to, I, I, I usually refer them to a therapist who can really help them work with it. Mm-hmm. . Or to 12 step groups if they've got an alcohol or drug addiction problem. Uh, 12 step groups are a great place to, to work on all that cuz the steps really strip you down and make you face yourself.
Mm-hmm. and you don't carry
[00:11:55] Gordon Brewer: that garbage around with you anymore. Mm-hmm. .
[00:11:58] Jay Mills: Um, but, but I also tell 'em that, that there are solutions mm-hmm. , um, that you don't have to go around mad at the world.
[00:12:08] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's a, Yeah, it's a, and I think a lot of times people will, um, there's a lot of fear involved and in terms of well, it's the baseline for it.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. And so it, what was, what were some of the things that help you, I mean, obviously prayer and 12 step programs and that sort of thing kind of help you do that, but what are some of the, the other things that helped you kind of overcome some of the fears?
[00:12:38] Jay Mills: Oh, I still wrestle with the fears. Uh, I was reading, uh, Richard Ros, um, commentary on the, uh, Sermon on the Mount, which is really good.
The first five chapters are, are historical background to the Ministry of Jesus, and he's just now getting to the Sermon on the Mount, but he said, said he's got a list of, of things he affirms. One of those is that, that God is on your side, which I. , uh, one of the later ones is that everything is heading somewhere good, which I believe, but he makes the comment that the world is a safe place.
And, um, I semi believe that. I also believe that it's could be a very dangerous place. Mm-hmm. . And that's where, that's where the promises of, of the call of Jesus to love those who persecute you, uh, to love your enemies. Where the rubber really meets the. Um, I, I, I don't want to have someone slap me on the face and have to turn the other cheek.
Mm-hmm. , I fear it. Um, but I, but that's what I'm called to. Yeah. Um, and, and ultimately I've found whatever, whatever traumatic things happen to me, God uses them, uh, as griffs for serving other people in the end. Mm-hmm. so I can face the fears with, with a certain amount of hope that God will do something good.
Yeah. I
[00:14:07] Gordon Brewer: don't know if that made any sense, but Yeah. What, Well, what I, what I was thinking of as you were saying this, is that, um, you know, in, in my work as a, the, as a therapist, A lot of the, a lot of the struggles that people have, um, they are very inwardly focused when they're having those struggles. Oh yeah.
Yeah. They're just wrapped up with the things that are going on in their mind and in their soul and all of that sort of thing. And I think when you can begin to turn that outward and really kinda show concern for others and focus on. Just being sojourners with other people that are struggling, that's when things begin to change for people.
[00:14:49] Jay Mills: Oh, I agree with that completely. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. The, the, the AA and, and NA and other 12 step groups, the premise is that if you're gonna get sobriety, you're gonna have to give it away mm-hmm. and help other people and, and help other people in, in other ways besides just. The, the self-centered fears are at the core of, of all, all the stuff that drives us.
Yeah. I was, I was one of the baddest guys on the block as, as a young adolescent and early 20 year old and was scared all the time. Mm-hmm. , but nobody knew it. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , Uh, and I couldn't afford to, to help other people. Uh, I can now, I can, I can learn to go beyond myself, my self-centered fears and reach out.
[00:15:40] Gordon Brewer: Right, Right. Yeah. Yeah. So,
[00:15:44] Jay Mills: and, and need to when I'm in my fears.
[00:15:47] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. So if, if people are thinking about how, maybe ways in which they can live more into kindness and compassion, what have you found are the ways that you do that? Um.
[00:16:08] Jay Mills: Practice kindness towards yourself that, that God practices mm-hmm. , um, I think an awful lot of American religion sees God as an ogre waiting to swat them down, and I just don't believe that that's the God is revealed except in a few places in the Bible that I just don't pay attention to.
[00:16:26] Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. , um,
[00:16:33] Jay Mills: Actually, there's a, there's a saying in the 12 step programs, Fake it till you make it. Mm-hmm. to act compassionate until you feel compassionate. Mm-hmm. , there are actions drive our feelings, not the other way around. When we're, when we're stuck in fear-based stuff, our feelings drive our actions. Mm-hmm.
but to learn to act first and let the feelings follow, and I, I think that's vitally
[00:16:58] Gordon Brewer: important. Yeah. Yeah. I, I would totally agree with that. Is that, um, you know, if we , if we, if we wait around to feel the right way to do things, we probably wouldn't get anything done. It'll never happen. No. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, Yeah. And I, I have to,
[00:17:18] Jay Mills: I have to, uh, avoid isolation. Mm. Because my mind can conjure up all kinds of fears and, and self doubt that that has no,
[00:17:29] Gordon Brewer: no connection to reality whatsoever. Mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. ,
[00:17:32] Jay Mills: and then I, then I get stuck in, in, in self and lose the, that compassion and that mercy that I'm called by
[00:17:41] Gordon Brewer: God to, to embody.
Mm. Yes. Yes. So, uh, there might be folks that are listening that are maybe hearing a little bit different way of thinking about Christianity. So what, um, if you could kinda summarize maybe how you see your life as a follower of Christ now as opposed to how he used to do things. Um, um, Okay. Go ahead. Yeah.
Yeah. Well,
[00:18:16] Jay Mills: I was an absolute literalist when I was first converted in 1975 because the people who converted me were, uh, and the first, and they were, they were big into the second coming. They were, they were convinced if it didn't happen today, it was gonna happen yesterday. Mm-hmm. . And one of the things I began to notice is that none of them agreed on what any given scripture passage predicting the second coming, if indeed it did predict the second coming, which many of them.
Um, none of 'em agreed on it, and I began to smell a rat. Mm-hmm. . Um, and I went, went to theological, uh, school, uh, Virginia Seminary in Alexander, Virginia, and was taken under the wing of a really prominent, fairly, um, oh. Skeptical New Testament professor. Who taught me to think mm-hmm. , and I still see scripture as God's word, but, but I don't believe it's inherent.
Mm-hmm. , I don't believe that every word of it, uh, represents truth. I don't believe in an eight day creation. Um, I, I know that, that John paints a very different picture than Matthew, Mark and Luke of Jesus. Mm-hmm. and, and each one of 'em is a reflection of the Jesus they've encountered. Um, uh, I. I know that in John's gospel, Jesus cleanses the temple early in his ministry.
And Matthew Martin. Luke, it's late in the ministry. And I can go on and on and on and on about the, the, the differences. And yet when I read scripture, uh, with an open heart, I hear God speak. Mm-hmm. . Um, but there are many who would not consider me Christian anymore.
[00:20:01] Gordon Brewer: Interesting. Yeah. Well I think it's a, you know, one of the things that I hope through this podcast is that people can begin to, um, particularly those of us that are.
Where religion is important, where Christianity and all of that is that there's an, there's a different way of living into it, of understanding. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I, uh, I hope that people can, maybe, they maybe pay attention to that. Um, I've, uh, as I've shared with you Jay, I put, I, I put less and less stock in belief and more stock into.
Christianity being a way of life. Um, you know what I believe or don't believe, Yeah, it's important to some degree, but that's not where we're gonna find peace.
[00:20:57] Jay Mills: Um, well, I, I think Jesus himself talked a lot about that and, and a lot had a lot to do. She's had a lot to do with the inner motives behind why we do what we.
Not our belief systems necessarily. He, he didn't, he didn't, um, deny the belief system to the Judaism he lived within, but he broke all the rules. Mm-hmm. . Um, and, and in a similar, in a similar way, although diff different, um, the word, uh, belief in the New Testament is Pisas and Greek, and it ought to be translated trust.
Instead of belief. Cause belief is an intellectual thing. Mm-hmm. . Um, and anytime you see belief in, I believe or or belief in the New Testament, read the word trust and it'll completely revolutionize how you read the New Testament. Right,
[00:21:50] Gordon Brewer: right. Yeah. Uh, this is great stuff. So I wanna be respectful of your time, Jay, and I'm so glad we connected on this and I'm sure, yeah, I'm probably.
Hopefully get you back on the podcast before too long. Okay. Just to talk about these kind of philosophical and just kind of meaningful conversations, which, uh, I'm, I'm glad for the listeners to listen in on this. So thanks again. Well, thank you.

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About Gordon

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

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How To Have Healthy Relationships with Kindness & Compassion | K&C 15


Sometimes the people we are in close relationships with are the hardest to show kindness and compassion to. In this episode Gordon shares some of the research and science behind relationships.  It turns out that the key to healthy relationships is tied to recognizing interaction patterns, self-regulation, and curiosity. We can learn how to heal broken relationships and be more kind and compassionate in our key relationships. Listen in as Gordon draws from research and his years of experience in working with hundreds of couples as licensed marriage and family therapist. 

Why we hurt the ones we love

“Love hurts” is a common theme… A lot of songs about that! There are several hypothesis around why we tend to hurt those closest to us.  These include, but are not limited to:

      • We see in others similar faults to our own.
      • Out of a sense of control or retribution (“getting even”)
      • To gain attention or to engage the other person
      • As a form of self-sabotage or guilt; taking out our frustrations on others
      • No consequences for doing so; we get by with it
      • Being triggered by past emotional trauma.

What defines a healthy relationship

Although every relationship is unique, there are some characteristics of what healthy and lasting relationships look like. The research from Dr. John and Julie Gottman from the Gottman Institute reveal these characteristics of health relationships:

      • Over-all trust and commitment
      • An ability to manage and repair from conflicts
      • General sense of affection and admiration
      • Similar values and life dreams
      • Accepting the other’s influence
      • Knowing and understanding the other’s internal world; “what makes them tick”
      • Treating the internal world of the other with kindness and compassion

Patterns of Interactions

In my work with couples over the years, I often tell them, “I could really care less about what you are arguing about. But what I am interested in is HOW you argue.”  What I mean by that is the patterns of interactions and how people handle arguments is key to having a healthy relationship. 

After all, it is unrealistic to think that significant relationships will be conflict free. Every relationship has conflicts. The key to a healthy relationship is in developing healthy interaction patterns when there is conflict.

A good pattern of conflict management involves:

      • An ability of each person to self-regulate their own emotions. In other words, not letting the “anger thermometer” get too high.
      • Knowing when to table hot topics for both people to get a better perspective
      • A willingness to listen and truly hear out the other person
      • Getting curious about the other person’s internal world and experience
      • A willingness to accept the other person’s influence and do things their way
      • An ability to repair things when there has been something that hurts the other person
      • And finally, a willingness to forgive and let go. Saying “I’m sorry I hurt you” goes a long way in healing things that have hurt.

 

Criticism and Defensiveness 

According to the Gottman’s’, one of the most common negative patterns couples can get into is a pattern of criticism and defensiveness. And if not corrected or changed, over time, it leads to “stone-walling” (avoiding the other person) and/or contempt in the relationship.  

The Gottman’s refer to these things as the “Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse” (Criticism, Defensiveness, Stonewalling, and Contempt).  And also according to the Gottman’s’ research, if these patterns are not corrected or changed, the relationship is doomed to end. Especially if there is a level of contempt in the relationship.

Self-Regulation

A big part of having healthy relationships is having people that are emotionally healthy themselves.  In other words when both people are able to manage their own emotions well, they can then handle the emotions of their partner better.  

Another way to think about it is, what is your part in it? In other words, being aware of how your own actions are contributing to the problems that are happening.

This is often referred to as emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is something that is learned as we grow up but can also be learned later in life.  It doesn’t mean that emotionally intelligent people never get angry or hurt, but they are able to self-regulate and keep themselves grounded and under control when it happens.

Repairing

As mentioned above, another key component of healthy relationships is a couple’s ability to repair things once there has been a conflict.  The Gottman’s refer to this as “turning toward each other” after a conflict.  This in and of itself is the opposite of stone-walling.  

Simply put, it is a willingness of both people to “kiss and make up” after there is a conflict or feelings are hurt. This requires both people to be vulnerable with each other and know that the other will treat that vulnerability with kindness and compassion.

Play Nice

And finally, as simple as it sounds, having a healthy relationship involves both people having some affection and positive regard for each other.  They are simply nice and caring to each other.  In other words, show some kindness and compassion in your relationships.  It is the stuff of love and vulnerability. 

Conclusion

Healthy relationships are built on kindness and compassion.  After all, if you think about it, most of the problems and conflicts we have in life involve other people.  Knowing how to self-regulate and repair when there are conflicts goes a long way in helping people have healthy relationships. Also a willingness to trust and stay committed to the relationship.  After all, the #1 predictor of relationships succeeding, is a willingness of both people to stick it out with each other. And finally, the sign of a healthy relationship is when two people know the other’s internal world well and treating it with kindness and compassion.

Resources Mentioned

Attachment Theory – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

The Gottman Institute- https://www.gottman.com/

Sound Relationship House – https://www.gottman.com/blog/what-is-the-sound-relationship-house/

“Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse” – https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/

Dr. Susan Johnson – https://drsuejohnson.com/

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Gordon (00:00):
You know, in my work as a marriage and family therapist, um, I, I enjoy more than anything working with couples. It's, uh, kind of, kind of the niche I've car carved out for myself. I do work with individuals on, you know, various mental health issues, but also do a lot of work with couples. And one of the things, um, that, um, has, has pulled me into working with couples is really a lot of that desire that I have to really help people sort through the conflicts that they have, and really figure out how to have more meaningful relationships. You know, our primary, you know, as adults really most, all of us seek out a partner in life. It's kind of built into our DNA, you know, from the time that we're born, we have this innate desire to connect with others. And one of the things that's interesting is, um, you know, the, the, the divorce rates in the United States kind of hover around 50%.
Gordon (01:02):
So 50% of all first marriages, I think it's getting a little better. I haven't gone back and looked at the statistics lately, but, um, 50% of all first marriages, um, end in divorce. And that's kind of a, a sad prospect. And probably I think for some folks that are cynical, they'd say, well, why even bother if it's that bad of a, that bad of a statistic, but the truth of the matter is we need other people. And like I said, just said, is that it's kind of wired into our DNA. We want to seek out others, you know, from the time we're born, we have to connect. You know, if you think about a little baby and the need that a baby has to be held to be nurtured, to be loved to for the parents, to look into the baby's eyes and, and give that affection, if we don't do that, the baby ends up suffering from that.
Gordon (02:02):
Um, so we really need to have relationships. And the other thing that's an interesting kind of phenomenon is you look at the number of people that are out there that have either gone through, uh, are in their second or third marriages. Uh, and so you, you logic would kind of tell you that, okay, if I had bad experience with relationships, uh, then I, I don't want to try to do that again. I should, you know, just stay on my own, but we, we don't do that. We very quickly seek out others to be in relationship with. So it's a really, really, if you think about it, it's really a primary need we have as human beings is to be in those close intimate relationships. Not only when I say intimacy, uh, not only mean like ULA LA intimacy, but kind of intimacy of, of emotion.
Gordon (03:00):
And that's really the foundation of a healthy relationship. So what I'd like to talk with you about is to think about, um, what makes up a healthy relationship. And it turns out that there's been a lot of research into this, about what, what constitutes a, a healthy relationship and a lot of what I'm gonna talk about in here. I wanna give, uh, credit where credit is due. And this comes from the research of the Gottman's John and Julie Gottman are a husband and wife research team that have done over 40 years of research into marriage and relationships. And, um, I'm gonna have a link here to their Institute. The got Gottman Institute will be here in the show notes, but John and Julie Gottman, what they did is they, they took couples and they wanted to really kind of figure out what makes a relationship last and what makes for successful marriages.
Gordon (03:58):
And so, um, what they did is they took couples and they did this with both heterosexual couples and gay couples. And, um, they, they just put 'em in this, this retreat center called the love lab that they, they created, and they would have graduate students just observe what was going on as couples interacted with each other. And they would have, 'em wired up to look at heart rate and brainwaves and all of that sort of thing. And what they quickly discovered was that there were certain patterns that emerged as they watched couples interact with each other. And some of the patterns that they noticed were, were healthy patterns, and the couples were doing well with each other, but then there were the other couples that were, they noticed very quickly that if, as they watched them interact, that things weren't going well. And, but what they did in their study too, was to follow these couples over several years.
Gordon (04:53):
And the ones that they noticed that had the unhealthy patterns were doomed to fail. And I'm gonna talk a little bit more about those patterns here in a minute, but one of, one of the things I wanted to think about first is why is it that we tend to hurt the ones we love so to speak? And there's a lot of hypothesis around that. And some of the, some of it maybe points to the fact that with those that we're, we're closest to, we can, we tend to be, let our guard down a little bit more. In other words, we not always on our best behavior. And, and part of that is, is that we can get by with it. But also I think it's just, um, has to do with how we attach with other people, um, not to get too far off on this whole, um, psychological lesson, but there are some things that are both, uh, there's this thing called attachment theory, where it looks at how we bond with other people.
Gordon (05:55):
And so there are healthy attachments and unhealthy attachments. There are people that have kind of, of avoidant attachments. There are people that have kind of insecure attachments or anxious attachments. Again, not gonna go too far down that rabbit trail, but I'll try to put some links in the, uh, show notes here. That'll tell you more about that. But the other thing that we have to think about when, why we tend to hurt peop those that we're closest to, I think when we're close to people, we notice in them maybe faults of our own. And so we notice those faults that we own, we have for ourselves, and we kind of take it out on the other person. And I know I've been guilty of that in the past in relationships and will, will, will tend to be critical of somebody else's fault when we really know, uh, for ourselves that we contain that own fault, that, that, that same fault, uh, the other thing too, is, is that when you've got situations where people have gone through trauma, or they've gone through maybe raised in a family where there was a lot of conflict, um, being in conflict with their spouse or their, the person that they're in a committed relationship with, uh, that can be kind of triggering for 'em at times.
Gordon (07:16):
And so all of those kinds of things kinda lead to why we tend to hurt those that are closest to us. Um, the other, the other thing is that, um, we, um, might, you know, again, being human, you know, when somebody makes us mad or gets us riled up about something we might want to try to get even, or make, have some sort of retribution with that. And so that's another reason why maybe sometimes we hurt those that are closest to us, but one of the things I wanna start with is really looking at what defines a healthy relationship and then kinda work backwards from that of, you know, what, what we need to look for in our relationships in order to make them healthy. The thing that really, um, and again, this I'm, I'm borrowing from the Gottman's on this and really some of their research and what they kind of discovered as they observed couples over over the years.
Gordon (08:17):
Number one is just an overall commitment to the relationship is one of the characteristics of a commit of a healthy relationship. And along with that is trust. And the Gottman came up with something called the, the sound relationship house, which is a graphic they created. And again, I'll put some links in here in the show notes. So you can take a look at that, but the two things that you have to have for any healthy relationship is a commitment to stick it out. And again, uh, that's the, the number one predictor of what makes, uh, relationship successful is both parties being willing to just stick it out with each other through good or bad. And, you know, when you think about most of us in our marriage vows, along the way, those of us that are in married or in a committed relationship, when you make those vows, usually there's something in there about, for better or for worse.
Gordon (09:18):
So folks that really buy into that and stick it out with each other, um, you know, will have a lasting relationship. Now that doesn't mean a person needs to go through a relationship that where there's some abuse going on, or there's some really bad things going on in the relationship, but just a willingness to stick it out through the tough times, goes a long way. And then also obviously trust, you know, it's really helpful to be able to trust your spouse and to be able to know that they're gonna be there for you, and that they're not gonna betray you in some way. And this is usually in my work with, with couples, uh, over the years, usually this is the reason that they're coming to see me is that, that in some way, trust has been broken. Um, and it doesn't necessarily mean there's been an affair or any, any sort of infidelity, but maybe there's some sort of emotional trust that's been broken, or maybe there is just a betrayal, either big betrayals with a small B or betrayals with a big B, uh, that go on.
Gordon (10:23):
And that, that might be that they have hurt the other one's feelings in some way, or they have been snubbed in some way, or they've been belittled or criticized in some way, all the way up to kind of the big guns where somebody's maybe had an affair, that sort of thing. So you've gotta have that trust in a relationship. You've got to know that your partner has your back and that the person that's in it with you for the long haul is there for you. The other, the other thing that makes up, uh, makes for a healthy relationship is an ability to handle conflict in the relationship. Um, obviously, you know, there are gonna be conflicts in relationship. I don't know of any, any relationship that doesn't have conflicts, but what makes for a healthy relationship is for the couple or the, to, to be able to manage those conflicts well, and then repair any damage that might be done from that conflict.
Gordon (11:29):
So, um, that that's at a, a very key component. And again, when I see couples usually that are coming to me for therapy, it's usually because they have kind of come to a roadblock block or an impase in their ability to handle conflict with each other. And then some of the things that are just kind of maybe kind of common sense over what makes for a healthy relationship is, um, obviously there, there should be in a healthy relationship, just a general sense of affection and, and love and admiration for their partner. And again, that's kind of common sense there with that one, most couples that have a healthy relationship share very similar values and life dreams with each other. In other words, they're on the same page about around that. That doesn't mean that, you know, I have had seen, um, uh, very healthy couples that might have maybe different religious or political views.
Gordon (12:30):
I've known couples that maybe come from different faith traditions and they respect that in each other and that sort of thing. But so, but they, anyway, there's a mutual respect around all of that. And part, part of it that goes into that, that mutual respect is a couple's ability to accept each other's influence on things. So in other words, to be able to know how to compromise and to be able to not necessarily do it my way all the time, but being able to be, um, take some joy and being able to do it things the way their, their partner wants to do things. The other thing is, um, that really kind of defines a healthy relationship is for both people to know what makes up the other's internal world. In other words, they really understand what makes the other person tick. They understand that internal world, what motivates them, what they're, what they're ashamed of, what they're proud of every, you know, it's kinda like there, there are in, in some ways, a way to put that is that there are really no secrets there.
Gordon (13:39):
They know, uh, both, uh, they, they know their partner well, and they love them wart and all so to speak. And, and really ultimately they treat that internal world with a great deal of kindness and compassion. Uh, and so that's a, at a very important key key component of having a relation, healthy relationship. And so what happens when things go awry, those are kind of the things that make up a healthy relationship. And again, this is based on not only the re research of John and Julie Gottman, but there's some other researchers out there. One in particular is sued Johnson, um, who is also, um, a researcher into marriage and family and marriage and, and, uh, couples and committed relationships. And I'll talk a little bit more about them here in a moment, but anyway, one of the things I tell couples when they come to see me as a therapist is, um, and I say this kind of tongue in cheek, but then again, it's kind of, uh, kind of serious in that I really could care less what they're arguing about.
Gordon (14:48):
In other words, I, you know, the topic doesn't matter to me what it is they're arguing about, but what I'm really interested in is how they argue, or in other words, the patterns of interactions. And that is where we can make a difference in our relationships when we understand how we interact with each other and how it goes down. You know, I mentioned, um, I mentioned, uh, Sue Johnson, uh, and one of the things that she mentions is is that we can, um, couples can get into what she refers to as demon dialogues. In other words, when it starts, it starts and we're on. And so the, the things spiral out of control, uh, once those kinds of things happen. And so when a couple things about repairing things, they need to start with how they interact with each other and understanding the patterns and how things go down.
Gordon (15:50):
And so a good pattern of interaction for couples is an ability, number one, to be able to self regulate. And this is where knowing yourself well comes into play. And also being brutally honest with yourself about how you might be contributing to the conflict in the relationship. Our tendency as human beings is we want to blame the other for our problems, but when we can really begin to look at ourselves after all, if you think about it, and this is a truth, is that the only person we can change is who ourself. And so being aware of that, as you go into thinking about handling conflict with your partner goes a long way. And so, as you think about how you might interact with your partner or that the, the person that you're in a relationship with is being able to really, again, ask that question, what is my part in this?
Gordon (16:51):
And what can I do to change how I am interacting with them? That's gonna help the conflict go better. And, and part of that is, again, um, as I've mentioned in previous episodes is really knowing yourself well and being mindful. Um, it involves some emotional intelligence. And what I mean by that is, is that, you know, yourself, well, you know how to regulate your own emotions. Well, in other words, if you're getting angry or getting upset or getting anxious, you know how to regulate that within yourself, it's referred to a lot of times as an internal locus of control. And so being able to, to hone that skill and hone those skills of being able to regulate yourself well, when you're upset or when you're angry, or when you're feeling anxious, or when you're feeling any of the negative emotions, being able to handle that well is gonna go a long way in helping you navigate things in your relationships.
Gordon (17:56):
Uh, particularly when there's conflict. The other thing about managing conflict and in relationships is learning how to be curious about what's going on with your partner. Um, you know, our, our tendency is to get on the defensive when there's conflict. And I'm gonna talk about in just a moment, just the typical pattern that happens in relationships, around, um, criticism and defensiveness, but being, being able to recognize when you're getting defensive of being able to kind of change the course of things at that point. So being able to say, okay, I need to take a break here, um, because I'm starting to get angry around these things. And I, I love you. And I want to be able to back off from this a little bit, so we can talk, talk about this kinda rationally or more at an even keel, because if I keep getting angry, I'm gonna not listen.
Gordon (18:51):
And that's a, another thing just as a side note here, when we get emotionally flooded with things. In other words, the anger thermometer starts going up. It really debilitates our ability to hear and listen because our amygdala, that part in our brain that is there to protect us, kind of takes over. And we go into fight or flight mode and when a couple starts to escalate and they get into that fight or flight mode, and the amygdala is taking over. There is no dialogue anymore. They are just going at each other and they're not hearing each other. And so that, that's a point at which they do need to back off from things. Now that doesn't mean they need to avoid the, the topic, but be able to self regulate, bring themselves down to a more even keel where they're not angry and then come back and talk about their problems.
Gordon (19:49):
Um, that goes a long way in being able to manage conflict. Well, the other thing about being able to manage conflict well is knowing how to repair things. And, um, that is a key feature in healthy couples. Is, is that when they do have a conflict, they maybe have a row, or they're an argument. They come back to each other and they learn how to turn towards each other, uh, after that conflict to make amends, to repair things, to kiss and make up, as they say, uh, being able to do that is a key component of having a relationship, uh, rather a healthy relationship. So let's, let's dive a little deeper end of how conflicts start and how, um, the patterns that we typically see. And again, this is based, a lot of this is based on the research of the Gottman's, you know, when the Gottman's were observing couples.
Gordon (20:50):
One of the things that they noticed is that if they saw a particular conflict pattern in the relationship, if those things were not corrected and that what they referred to this as is the, the four horsemen of the apocalypse and what those four components of that, if they saw this going on in the relationship, and if it wasn't corrected, the, the relationship was doomed to fail, and they could predict this with 90% accuracy, if a couple was gonna make it or not based on these four components of what they call the four horseman of the apocalyp of the apocalypse. And those four things are criticism, defensiveness. Another one is stonewalling, and then the fourth one is contempt. And so typically how this, how this plays out is that a couple will get into a pattern of criticism and defensiveness. And our, our tendency as human beings is, is that when we feel criticized by someone, particularly if we feel like that criticism is unjust or is not warranted, we go on the defensive.
Gordon (22:01):
And so when couples start into that pattern of criticism and defensiveness, that's when things start to spiral out of control. Um, as I mentioned earlier, Sue Johnson calls these demon dialogues when a couple starts into this, you know, somebody says something that is critical of the other, or is maybe mean-spirited, um, the other person gets defensive and it's on. And so that's when things start to spiral out of control. And so, you know, that it's criticism, if it comes out of your mouth, is you always, are you never, and this is something I point out in couples is to be aware of what you're saying to your partner really matters. It's not what we say. It's how we say it. You know, 80% of communication is nonverbal. So what's not, it's not the words that we say that matter, but it's the tone in which we use.
Gordon (23:02):
And also the body language that we use. So to, to be able to counteract, um, criticism, defensiveness, number one with criticism is a, is learning to phrase things in a way that are, make it, you're making a request of your partner rather than offering criticism. So being able to say things like, you know, when such and such happens, I really would prefer that you do blah, blah, blah. And that sounds like a weird kind of way of communicating, but rather than starting out with, well, you always, or you never, you never picked up your dirty clothes. You always leave your socks on the floor. Uh, being able to say instead, you know, it really bothers me when the socks are left on the floor. Do you mind being more mindful of picking up your socks? Totally different way to start a conversation. And then to counteract defensiveness, as I said earlier, is to approach things with curiosity, when you notice that you're getting defensive is to kind of remind yourself or be mindful of getting curious about what is going on with the other person, what is going on with your, um, with your, with your partner?
Gordon (24:16):
Um, you know, an example would be, you know, you, you kind, you kinda spoke to me kind of harshly there. What's going on that you're, you're talking to me in that way, because it, it really kind of hurt that you, you said it that way. So again, it's kind of, overcommunication in things. The other, the other parts of, of the four horsemen of the apocalypse are stonewalling. And that is when we just avoid our partner or avoid interacting with our partner. And that's, that's what the criticism and defensiveness pattern leads to if it's not corrected. And then after if the stonewalling and the criticism and the defensiveness is not changed, that leads to contempt. It leads to a couple that gets to where they just really don't like each other. They really don't want to be around each other. And the Gottman say that when a couple reaches that point, really the relationship is over at that point. And, um, it takes a lot to repair a couple when things are at the contempt level. So that's, that's something to be aware of. If you notice that you're feeling that way about your partner, I would really encourage you to get into some therapy to begin to deal with that not only individual therapy, but also couples therapy to begin to work on that.
Gordon (25:45):
Well, I know we've covered a lot here in this short episode, but just to kind of quickly recap one of the things, uh, that we need to really focus on when we think about exercising, kindness and compassion in our relationships, is to be able to be aware of the patterns of interaction. You know, couples can get into some bad habits around how they interact with each other, uh, being aware of when you're being critical of your partner and being able to, um, learn how to, when you feel criticized to be aware of not going on the defensive too quickly, because things tend to spiral outta control when, when a, when a couple starts
Gordon (26:29):
Into that
Gordon (26:29):
Pattern of criticism
Gordon (26:30):
And defensiveness.
Gordon (26:32):
And the other thing is, is to be able to allow yourself to be vulnerable with, with your partner. Um, as it mentioned already, vulnerability is the key to having a meaningful relationship, uh, of being able to let your guard down and let each other into your inner world, and then treating that inner world with kindness and compassion. Uh, that's a key, those are key components to having a healthy relationship, one that is built on kindness and compassion. And so the other, the other thing too, that I mentioned as a recap here is the importance of repairing things. When you've, when you've had a conflict, when you've gotten angry with each other or any of that sort of thing, is being able to go back and repair and make amends for the hurt that has happened. And then also, uh, continuing to build those, those lifelong commitments through shared meaning and being able to look at your life dreams and being able to, you know, think ahead in, in terms of that being a positive, uh, kind of experience for, for both people to be able to look at their life, uh, look at what their common bond is and continuing to build on that.
Gordon (27:55):
And, um, and finally, I would say if you, if you find that you're getting stuck with some of these things that I mentioned here in this episode, I would encourage you to seek out, uh, professionals, maybe to get some help with that, um, that, you know, certainly you could find, um, a licensed marriage and family therapist. And I would, I will say this when you, if you seek out therapy, find someone that, um, is trained in working with couples because that's working with couples is different than working with individuals. And I think it's important to have someone that will, uh, knows what they're doing just around, uh, their training and that sort of thing. Um, also I mentioned in this episode, the resources, again, those links will be here in the show notes and the show summary and, um, to the Gottman Institute, and then also some resources from Dr. Sue Johnson that I mentioned in here as well. So hopefully you find this helpful and, um, hope good luck with your relationships and, uh, do treat each other with greater kindness and compassion.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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