relationships Archives - Kindness and Compassion Podcast

June 25, 2023June 25, 2023

Blake Roberts | Curiosity Over Criticism In Our Lives | K&C 24

Get to know fellow therapist Blake Roberts as he shares his insights on mental health, overcoming fear, and cultivating curiosity and compassion. Blake shares his vision of building a community for men struggling with internal issues. He emphasizes the importance of creating a safe space where men can share their experiences and support each other. Plus, we chat about discovering the power of compassion and curiosity in healing past wounds. This episode reminds us that we all need a community to lean on during difficult times.

Meet Blake Roberts, LMFT

Blake is a therapist in private practice in Nashville, TN where he lives with his wife. Blake is also a writer, photographer, drummer, former college football player, the Enneagram says he’s a 9, and most importantly he’s a girl Dad – expecting their first baby in July.

He works mostly with men in his practice guiding them through trauma, unwanted behaviors, relational issues, spiritual abuse, and more. He helps engage the nuances and complexities of their stories to find beauty, meaning, and growth.

Cultivating Curiosity and Compassion: A Path to Well-Being

One of the main themes in this podcast is the importance of approaching oneself and others with curiosity and compassion. He emphasizes that to be kind and compassionate towards others, one must first learn to be kind and compassionate to oneself. This means being aware of one’s own inner dialogue and being able to extend kindness and compassion towards the parts of oneself that are despised or ashamed of.

Breaking the Silence: Men and Trauma

Blake also notes that trauma can impact individuals in various ways and that creating a safe and non-judgmental space for men to explore their feelings and experiences is essential. He encourages men to get curious about their emotions and to be with them in a kind and compassionate way. This approach allows men to gain new narratives and not just continue to push through and try to change their behaviors.

Furthermore, Blake’s approach to helping men heal from trauma is systemic, as he views individuals as impacted by their family system, directly and indirectly. He allows men to connect the dots between what is going wrong in their lives and their narratives around why these things are happening. By exploring these stories with curiosity and compassion, men can gain new insights and perspectives on their experiences.

Taming Your Emotions: A Guide to Using Language to Your Advantage

Blake emphasizes the importance of having language around our emotions and experiences to understand better and communicate them. He notes that if we don’t have language around what we’re feeling, it’s hard to communicate it, and we may only be able to express a sliver of what we’re experiencing; this can lead to anger, resentment, or frustration, which may not accurately reflect what’s happening inside us.

Blake notes that emotions and trauma are stored in our bodies, and our brains try to make sense of them with the knowledge that we have. We can better understand and process our emotions by learning to name and identify them. However, if we have the language to understand and communicate these experiences, we may be able to make sense of them and may even lock them away. This is especially true for men, who may have grown up in environments where emotions were not discussed or were seen as weak.

Don’t React, Respond: Stay Calm and In Control When Threatened

Men need to respond rather than react to threats. Our brains are wired to respond to perceived threats in a fight, flight, or freeze response, but this response is often inappropriate for the situation at hand. Our brains can’t distinguish between a bear and a deadline, meaning that we may react to non-life-threatening situations as if they are life-threatening.

Learning to respond rather than react requires mindfulness and self-awareness. We must learn to identify when we are reacting out of fear or anger and take a step back to evaluate the situation and our options. One helpful tool is to ask ourselves if the situation threatens our life or our lifestyle. We can approach it with a more measured response if it is merely a threat to our lifestyle.

Find out more about Blake’s work:

Website: https://www.blakerobertscounseling.com

Newsletter: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/61bfc41a14ec6db2d2b5341b

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/blake.the.counselor/

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person. He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook . And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

March 30, 2023March 30, 2023

Ann Purcell | The Power of Vulnerability and Kindness | K&C 23

Author and songwriter Ann Purcell joins Gordon in this episode to discuss how vulnerability and kindness can give us strength. Ann shares her experience of being alone as an 18-year-old in a new environment and her song “Be Kind” that it inspired. Gordon and Ann explore how the power of kindness and strength can be a powerful combination, and this is something Ann has experienced firsthand.

Ann believes that true vulnerability is a strength, not a weakness. We don’t normally share what’s going on in our internal world with people, but it’s through vulnerability that we are able to truly connect with other people.

Meet Ann Purcell

Ann Purcell

Ann Purcell is a philanthropist, award-winning author, and songwriter. Her latest publication is Tender Flower of Heaven, which is a collection of 130 poems. Ann has been a full-time teacher of Transcendental Meditation since 1973, teaching Transcendental Meditation and advanced courses in many countries around the world. In addition, she has worked on curricula and course development for universities and continuing education programs.

Ann is also an international leader of the TM-Women Organization and oversees the teaching of Transcendental Meditation in girls’ schools and communities in several countries in Africa. She donates all proceeds from her photography, books, and music to its educational programs. Ann founded Enlightenment For Everyone in 2012

Ann also wrote the song “Be Kind” which was based on her own experiences at a young age.

Be Kind written by Ann Purcell and performed by Olivia Seibel

Stay present and connected

Anne learned that by being connected to herself, she could be happy in any situation. She found that the more connected she was to her inner self, the less she was tossed about by the stormy seas of life. Being connected to ourselves is not an intellectual connection, but an experiential one. It is a state of pure silence and stillness, where we are awake to our own silence instead of being focused on the outside world.

As we become more connected to ourselves, we become more relaxed and kind. We are also better able to access our intuition and intellect, allowing us to make better decisions.

Mindfulness is another way to stay present and connected. It is the practice of being aware of our thoughts and our surroundings. Being mindful helps us to stay grounded and in the present moment, instead of worrying about the past or future. It also helps us to reduce stress and become more connected to our inner selves.

By staying present and connected, we can create meaningful connections with others and make positive changes in our lives. We can become more relaxed and kind, and access our intuition and intellect to make better decisions. Through mindfulness, we can stay grounded and in the present moment, allowing us to be more connected to ourselves and others. Being present and connected is an essential part of living a healthy and fulfilling life.

Let go naturally with TM

Transcendental Meditation (TM) is a technique that allows us to let go naturally and access a deep state of relaxation. TM is a form of meditation that uses a mantra to help the mind settle down and reach a state of stillness. By focusing on the mantra, we can become more aware of our thoughts and feelings, and eventually reach a state of pure transcendence.

When we practice TM, we go to the bottom of the ocean where there is no thought or movement. This is a state of pure stillness and quietness. It can be difficult to reach this level of stillness, but with TM, it happens naturally. We don’t have to try to slow down our minds or get rid of our thoughts; the mind will naturally go to that which is more pleasing.

When we come out of meditation, we are naturally more refreshed and the mind is more clear. We are more present and can focus on whatever task is at hand. We can use more of our minds in this capacity, and be more mindful and focused on our work.

We can also slow things down, allowing our body to follow, rather than keeping energy up. If someone is interested in getting started with TM, there are several steps they can take. They can find a certified teacher of TM, attend an introductory lecture, and take the four-day course. During the first day, they will learn the technique from the teacher, and the following three days will be spent answering practical questions and going deeper into the mechanics of the practice.

TM is a great way to let go naturally and access a deep state of relaxation. It can help us become more mindful and focused, allowing us to make better decisions and create meaningful connections with others. By learning TM, we can access a deeper level of stillness and quietness, and experience a more peaceful and present state of mind.

Being kind to others

One of the most important things we can do to create meaningful connections with others is to be kind. Kindness is a powerful force that can bring people together and create positive change.

Unfortunately, it is often overlooked or taken for granted. We can all benefit from taking the time to be kind to others, regardless of their background or beliefs. Being kind to others can also help to create a more peaceful environment.

Recently, Gordon heard a song called “Crack the Case” by Dawes. In the lyrics of this song, there is a line that says, “It’s really hard to hate anyone when you know what they have lived through…” The song encourages us to be kind, even in the smallest of ways, as it can help someone to rise and stand tall. The song reminds us that we don’t know what someone else is going through, so it is important to be kind and understanding.

Conclusion

Being kind to others is an important part of creating meaningful connections and a more peaceful environment. We can all benefit from taking the time to be kind to ourselves and others, regardless of their background or beliefs. By practicing TM, we can access a deeper level of stillness and quietness, and experience a more peaceful and present state of mind. Kindness is a powerful force that can bring people together and create positive change, so let’s take the time to be kind.

We can all benefit from taking the time to be kind to ourselves and others, regardless of their background or beliefs. Practicing mindfulness and meditation can help us access a deeper level of stillness and quietness, and experience a more peaceful and present state of mind. Taking the time to be kind to ourselves can help us be kinder to others.

Transcript

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00:03 Okay.

00:05 Hi, I'm Anne Purcell, and I'm really happy to be on the kindness and compassion podcast. And to meet you, Gordon, I think it's a wonderful

00:16 message or conversation you're trying to project out in the world. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

00:24 Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to the podcast. And I'm so happy for you to get to know Anne Purcell. Welcome, Anne.

00:36 Thank you.

00:37 So glad. Yes. And so, Anne had reached out to me and her team and just Anne's got some really interesting things that she's done in particular.

00:50 She's a songwriter and has created a song around kindness and compassion. But Anne, as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed?

01:04 Oh, thank you. Well, I've got my profession is actually I'm a teacher of transcendental meditation. I don't know if you've heard of that. I've been a teacher of that since

01:15 49 years, meditating 50 years. And so I've always been interested in in reducing stress in people's lives.

01:28 In the topic of how we can evolve as people and spirituality. And of course kindness is a big part of that. And I've written many songs more in my experiences in meditation, or experiences of just the joy of life or nature out in nature.

01:51 I love writing about experiences nature.

01:54 But I had this one experience, it was actually the day after my mother passed away a couple years ago.

02:02 And I would I go I love to go for morning walks on the beach so I went for my usual morning walk and I noticed, there's some people walking over the beach and I, I said hi to them.

02:14 And usually I'm feeling very open and happy. And I think they thought that's probably I was feeling happy but inside I was feeling very tender, very emotional it just struck me that you don't know what people are feeling inside you really don't even

02:32 know what people that you look at them they seem happy, but you don't know what they're going through. And so, it just was a reminder of the importance to be kind to be respectful, and really for three or four days I felt kind of a disconnect with my environment.

02:50 And before I went like to the grocery store I just felt gosh they don't know what I'm experiencing in my life. What are they experiencing in their life. And that inspired the song be be kind.

03:04 Yes, yes. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more and I think that's one of the things that I've learned.

03:12 Over the years, is just, particularly in my work as a therapist you know just working with people, you know, we don't, we don't normally share what's going on in our internal world with people which, you know, quite frankly, it's not real smart to just

03:29 start with anyone, because that you know that's, but that it, I've also learned that it's through vulnerability that we are able to really truly connect with other people and then with vulnerability.

03:45 And when you're met with kindness and compassion that's when things really change for people. Yes, I agree that I've been hearing that word a lot in the past few years vulnerability that we have to not be afraid to be vulnerable.

04:02 I agree to be able to open up and, but I think vulnerability true vulnerability is also a strength. I think a lot of people look at vulnerability as a weakness, or you're vulnerable and you're going to get hurt and so we have to protect you.

04:19 I think, ultimately, or true vulnerabilities when we're actually very, we're so strong inside that we're not afraid to be open. Right, that we can be open. And so the question is then how to develop that strength.

04:36 How can we can be vulnerable so if some little storm comes it's not going to blow us over, we can we can meet the storm head on the open to it and uplift the situation or solve the problem situation or someone's attacking you in that storm, being able

04:57 to snap back and become defend become the defenses, but to be able to still be open and to engage in a conversation in a way that diffuses that situation.

05:13 Right, right.

05:15 Yeah. So, I don't know if you, I don't know if you agree with that from a clinical psychologist. Yeah, well no absolutely because as you were saying that what I was reminded of is.

05:26 There's a, there's a talk that I often refer my clients to my as a thought as a therapist and it was done by Brene Brown, who's pretty well known. And it's all it the title of the presentation is called the call to courage.

05:46 And essentially what she is. She says and there's exactly what you said and is that we cannot have courage without vulnerability, and in that one does not occur without the other.

06:01 And so, and she, you know, really put that together and just talking with like military veterans that had been through some horrific things and just being able to recognize that when, when you're vulnerable.

06:16 That's where courage comes from but also strength. Yes, yes, yes.

06:22 Yes. Yes. So, so, how to develop the strength is the question then, right, you can be vulnerable. Right.

06:32 And then when you have that strength. That's the basis for being kind to.

06:38 Because if you're have all these walls inside.

06:56 You know, unexpectedly, you know, it's like a, you're holding things inside and at some point that's going to have to release come out. Sure. So to be kind.

07:08 You really have to be full and happy inside and and strong. And then that allows for greater kindness and greater compassion what you're talking about so much right, right.

07:22 So, in your journey and with your practices of transcendental meditation what have you. What have you learned so far.

07:32 That's a big question.

07:34 That's a really big question.

07:37 Well, in the beginning, maybe we can start from the beginning. I think I learned to be by myself, that would be the first thing I learned.

07:48 When I was in school in England, I didn't know I didn't really feel I knew the people or felt I had much in common with the people.

07:57 I was around, I was a completely new situation I was 18 years old and when I learned TM transcendental meditation.

08:06 That was the first time I could sit by myself and actually enjoy being by myself. And I remember thinking to myself, if I can learn to be happy by myself.

08:20 I can learn to be happy in any situation.

08:24 So that was the first, I think big learning awakening, I had.

08:31 And then as just time grew and over the years and with transcendental meditation the changes are very subtle, subtle they just grow quietly and it's so natural that you almost sometimes don't even notice the growth until some situation happens and you think,

08:48 Oh, didn't react the way I used to react in that situation or I held my cool where normally that would have pushed my button and so little things like that start to happen more and more.

09:01 So, I learned that the more you're connected to yourself, it's like an anchor in your life. The more you're not tossed about by the stormy seas and so the importance of being connected to yourself and when I say being connected to yourself it's not an intellectual

09:22 connection. It's an experiential connection of just experience silence that silent state that's within everyone. We all have a very active mind.

09:34 And we also can be very worried and very have a very active mind and that's that more anxious stress state. And I think we've all experienced when we're in that very anxious stress state.

09:45 Nothing goes as well we we react to people in ways we wish we hadn't. We snap at people. We're not as efficient in our work.

09:55 But likewise if we've had a really good night's sleep and we wake up feeling really good that day, the whole day seems to go well and and and people smile on you it's like the world is smiling on you.

10:08 So, as you get rid of stress because when you transcend in TM the mind and body are intimately connected I'm sure you're really well aware of this.

10:21 So as the mind settles down the body settles down and gets a very deep state of rest, and that allows stress to be released.

10:29 And as the stress goes, you just feel more clear in your mind you feel more happier, but you have less of that, that's those thoughts on the surface level that way down, and you're more connected to those deeper thoughts, your intuition your, your intellect

10:47 becomes more clear those are deeper levels of the thinking process, but it's all based on the, your being level which is a state of pure silence pure stillness, where you're awake to your silence, instead of being awake to everything on the outside, you

11:04 become awake to that stillness, so that when I'm talking about that connected to connectedness to the to yourself. It's really an experience of that silence it's not an intellectual thing.

11:18 And then just very naturally very spontaneously you're just more relaxed you're more easy. And that allows you to be more kind and respectful I, I really feel respect belongs to the word kindness as well.

11:35 It means being respectful towards other people's right, right, you know, as you were saying all of that and one of the things that I was just thinking about in the context of doing doing therapy with people and working with people in that capacity.

11:52 One of the things that that happens is that our thoughts, we do have a very hard time turning our heads off and turning our thoughts off. Yes. And I think the more that we can practice another term for it is mindfulness of being just aware of what we're thinking

12:11 and being aware of where we are in our body and in our space and where we are in general. That is where we can really begin to, like you said, find that joy find that groundedness all of that kind of thing and so I think of, you know, transcendental meditation

12:30 and the, and what little bit I am familiar with it it's a way it's a process of grounding yourself and getting into getting into the present moment because there are two states that we can find ourselves in is one, we get.

12:48 Well, actually there's three states we can find ourselves in but we can two of them can keep us off track and one is a preoccupation or thinking about the future too much.

13:02 And that puts us in a state of anxiety of worry. Yes, you know what if this happens what if that happens that kind of thing.

13:09 And the opposite of that being being preoccupied with the past of thinking about well I wish I would have I wish I could have, you know, being in that space which is really kind of a space of guilt and maybe even depression to some degree.

13:25 But if we can teach ourselves. Yeah, regret. Yes, absolutely.

13:30 But I think if we can teach ourselves to be in the present moment, which is really the only thing we have control over anyway, is that's where we can begin to do like you said to calm the mind to become more mindful, more grounded and more in a place

13:49 of being able to find more joy and peace, that sort of thing.

13:53 That's really I really loved what you say and I think that's so completely true.

14:00 I guess, and obviously I'm a little biased because I am a teacher of transcendental meditation, and I'm not really biased because I think every technique of meditation has some value, some use.

14:11 But the only, the only thing I would say is that being mindful.

14:28 Mind just keeps going off. And so, I so stress anxiety can is what keeps a person from being mindful. So, and there are many many techniques of mindfulness so I'm never quite sure what when someone talks about mindfulness what they're actually talking about

14:50 is mindfulness of the breath is that mindfulness of just bringing your awareness back to the moment is mindfulness of just observing your thoughts there's there are many different techniques of mindfulness.

15:02 But the only thing I would say is that in transcendental. Let's say that you're practicing the mindfulness of just coming back to the present and being aware of your thoughts.

15:16 So let's take an example of the ocean. So you're, you're feeling stressed you're sitting on the beach so you think, okay, just look at the waves on the ocean just be aware of the waves.

15:28 You're still looking outside you're still being aware of the waves with TM. You actually go to the bottom of the ocean where it's that state of pure transcendence where there's no thought.

15:43 It's just stillness it's just quietness and there's even degrees of that quietness sometimes we can have that quietness but there's still some thoughts going around but you're more settled you're more still.

15:54 And you're not trying to bring your awareness, even to that stillness it just happens automatically.

16:02 And when you, and I can explain why that happens automatically but the point I'm trying to make here is, then when you come out of meditation, you're just naturally more refreshed the mind is more clear.

16:14 So whatever you're doing, you're putting more. You're just naturally automatically more present, you're using more of your mind in that capacity.

16:24 So if you're working in your office and you're working on writing something on your computer, instead of feeling stressed in your mind wandering all the time.

16:33 You're just feeling clear and relaxed so you're just very focused on your work, and that is a very pure state of mindfulness, when you're naturally focused.

16:44 Yeah, yeah, it does absolutely and that, you know, I think it's, as you describe it is really kind of learning to quiet the mind of really just kind of being focused on.

17:03 You know it's interesting I like the way you, you kind of clarified because there is, there are just several different ways we can be mindful and mindful of different things, and sometimes we can get that.

17:15 That can be overwhelming as well but I think being able to just being centered being able to slow things down enough to where we can, and our body will follow if we allow it, rather than just keeping, keeping energy up.

17:35 And the reason why in TM, you can slow the mind down in a natural way and that's very important there's no trying to slow the mind down there's no trying to get rid of our thoughts, is it goes by the principle, principle that the mind will always go to that which is more pleasing.

17:56 If we're talking now and your favorite music comes on your mind will go there. If you're reading a really good book, your mind will stay focused, if you're reading a boring book, the mind will wander.

18:08 I think every student knows if they have a good teacher. They love the class they're engaged but if it's not a good teacher. They're counting the seconds till the class is over.

18:19 So with TM, all we do is take that natural tendency of the mind to go to that which is more pleasing, but just turn it inward.

18:30 And it so happens those quieter levels of the mind are more charming and people have experienced that if you're reading a good book you're settled.

18:39 And you're just charmed by that experience. And, and those quieter levels of the mind the more they're more peaceful, and the mind will automatically go there it will automatically settle down all we do with TM is set up for the dive, but the dive happens

18:57 automatically. So that's a very important point. Yeah, that's great. That naturalness that it happens naturally. Right. Yeah.

19:06 So, if a person were interested in getting started with doing some transcendental meditation.

19:14 What's usually the.

19:16 What are usually the first steps in order to help them kind of go deeper.

19:21 Well, you do have to learn by a certified teacher of transcendental meditation we have teachers all over the world, all over the US and you can go, we have two websites, the main website TM.org and we have a woman's website TM dash woman.org.

19:41 And you. You can hear an introductory lecture on the website, you can find a teacher in your area.

19:49 You can decide to take the course it's a four day course there is a fee that helps support the centers and the teachers and also some of the money goes to support those who can't afford to learn.

20:03 And that it's an hour, hour and a half for four days straight you have to make a four day commitment. The first day you do need to learn by a teacher.

20:14 But now we have an app where you can do the three follow up days via an app, or many teachers, many people also will. There will be a course in the TM Center and you can go to the course in the center.

20:28 But then you have it for life.

20:31 And it's so easy learn the first day but the three follow up days that there are just practical questions on the first follow up days, what do you do if the phone rings, what are the best time to the second day, you go into the mechanics of the practice

20:47 why it's natural, what are the roles of thoughts and meditation, why we don't try to get rid of thoughts and meditation. And the third day gives more of a vision of the possibility so it's a three day.

21:01 There's three follow up days after learning the first day and also during those three days, they have what's called the checking process, because it's a very subtle technique.

21:12 We're so used to trying in our lives and feeling we have to try and the harder we try or we may have done some technique of concentration in the past.

21:23 And so the three checking is just to verify the effortlessness of the technique just to make sure that it is effortlessness and you're not inserting anything yourself that you may have learned in the past.

21:38 Yeah, yeah, it's as you describe it it's kind of the visual the metaphor that came to mind for me was just thinking about floating in the water you have to learn to if someone floats in the water.

21:53 They have to learn how to just kind of let go of a lot of stuff. Yeah, letting go.

21:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, if we try to let go.

22:04 That's why it has to happen naturally. And that's, it's a very pleasant experience to I mean, different people, everyone has different physiologies. So everyone experiences different we teach in prisons we teach you we're talking about veterans or

22:22 Renee Brown was talking about veterans.

22:25 Sorry, Renee Brown.

22:28 We teach veterans who have post traumatic stress disorder, we've received a couple million dollar grant from the Veterans Administration or the Department of Defense to teach to do a study we have many phase one studies but now they're doing phase two

22:46 for veterans with post traumatic stress. And also we're teaching a lot in with doctors and nurses when the pandemic started. We launched a program called heal the healers, because the nurses were getting so burnt out and the doctors in the hospitals.

23:04 We're teaching in about 60 hospitals, and there's ongoing research in several hospitals like at Duke University and several hospitals in New York and think it's Brigham's hospital in Boston on the impact of TM with nurses and doctors and how to stress.

23:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that's going to be interesting to see and I think we can can almost predict how that's going to go.

23:33 Yeah, the preliminary results are very promising. That's good, but, but

23:40 doctors like to see research to do it with doctors and if they see the research but they're we're getting, there's a growing mainstream support for this practice, and because of the scientific research.

23:55 Yeah. Well, that's great. That's great. So, and to switch gears a little bit here. Tell folks a little bit about your song and what it's about and how they can find it.

24:07 Thank you for asking that. Well the songs called be kind.

24:11 It's the first line goes, you don't know if one is hurting, you don't know if one is in pain. What if his insides are churning with sadness of the pouring rain.

24:25 Maybe he's struggling with lack of money or has problems with his family maybe he's, oh gosh now I'm forgetting the words maybe he's.

24:36 Then the verse goes be kind be kind.

24:41 It's not that hard to be nice you may just save a life. Be kind, be kind, a warm hand a warm heart, a warm touch can help someone so much.

24:53 Any act of kindness no matter how small will help one to rise and stand tall. So those are some of the words that you can just do a YouTube search it's on YouTube.

25:05 Be kind you have to say the name and per cell because if you do a recent YouTube search. There's a song. Be kind by Halsey the singer, which is very different. Okay, doesn't have the same message.

25:19 Okay. Yeah. And so we'll have. Yeah, we'll be sure to have links in the show notes and show summary on the podcast for that. Yeah, so I bet yeah I'm reminded of.

25:31 Yeah, so speaking of songs and being kind.

25:35 There's a song that I've discovered here recently in the last year or two. And it's by doll, a group called dolls and I probably, I'll try to slip the, the title of the song because I'm drawing a blank on it here.

25:50 Right now as I think about it but there's a line in that song that essentially says, you can't hate anyone if you know what they've been through.

26:00 And so that's a yeah, yeah, and so that that whenever I hear that song it just always touches me just thinking about that, that, that, that whole practice, because I as folks have maybe heard me speak to before on this podcast.

26:19 You know, I think when we, when we take the time to learn somebody's backstory, or find out what is underneath. Yes, it really does create the space for being kind and compassionate with people and that's so important.

26:37 It's interesting and I can't remember her name I might as well. She's a comedian and she went around talking to, I think Republicans I think she was a Democrat.

26:51 And she discovered that if you could just actually get in the car into a conversation with them and talk about their life and everything then you could discuss the issues, and you could maybe come to some agreements and discovered that there are actually

27:08 many things they even agreed upon. And so, again, it goes to what you're saying when you really can have conversation and get to know someone and you know something comes up from their past or maybe you, you've prejudged this person, but then you hear

27:29 maybe what they went through when they were young, then it totally changes your image of that person and then you just have this incredible appreciation for that people.

27:41 And so it really is important to not judge and to really be open to people and respectful and kind it's so it's so important and it's such a simple concept really.

27:56 And, you know, I'm always reminded of the Bible do unto others as you would have do unto you, you know, because we all want to be treated with respect and kindness, and so it's, it's hard sometimes it's just a habit of being catty we, we can gossip

28:15 about people and we're just Oh, that person's looks like that today. I remember I was very lucky not that I always went by my father's advice but I remember growing up, if I was complaining about my teacher at school he'd always say, Well, you don't know what's going on in

28:31 their family you don't know what's going on, how he might have wrote woken up on the wrong side of the bed. Right. And so my father would never let me complain about people, because he'd always say that to me and so not that I could always follow that advice

28:50 you know and and again I think it's structured in our own physiology, being able to be kind and respectful to other people for not feeling good ourselves, then it's hard to be.

29:04 Yeah. Good to other people right right. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's a it's an interesting phenomenon and that when, and again I've experienced this in my work with people and therapy and that sort of thing.

29:19 When somebody can put hand with somebody hands you something that's particularly hard, or something that brings them shame, or, you know, any sort of kind of the negative emotions.

29:33 Yeah, if they if they hand that to you and you treat that with kindness.

29:38 It creates change for them and for yourself.

29:42 It allows them to open up and it creates trust, a bond of trust and without that, you're going to just put up those walls inside right and not be open.

29:56 Yes. So how can we do this on a bigger scale you obviously understand this. Yeah, it's.

30:04 Yeah, I think it's it's through just this type of thing as far as you do you know, I don't know if you're familiar there was a story and I can't remember who it's attributed to but it's a just a story about this man walking along the beach.

30:20 And he's seeing all these starfish that are washing up on the beach. And so he's very carefully taking each starfish and putting it back into the ocean.

30:29 And this other person walks by and says, you know, I don't know why you're wasting your time doing this because you'll never get all these back into the ocean.

30:40 And he said, you're not going to make a difference here and so the man just very quietly picks up another one and takes it and puts it back in the ocean and says, I made a difference for that one.

30:52 And so that's a great story. Yes. And so I think that's kind of getting to your thought there. How do we make a difference? And I think it's just one, one person at a time and one starfish at a time.

31:05 And then that has a way of just kind of spreading.

31:09 And so that's, that's kind of my goal. My mission with this podcast is for us to make differences whoever might be listening to this, maybe make a difference in their life.

31:20 You bring up an interesting point because when I wrote the song Be Kind I started going online and looking for articles about being kind I came across Steve Hartman his kindness 101 and, and he had that beautiful show I don't know if you saw it on TV

31:36 but it was all these acts of kindness of just people doing a little bit out of the ordinary acts of kindness and, and I think I believe that what you put your attention on grows in life so if you put your attention on all the negativity that's happening

31:53 in your life but if you put your attention on the positive thing then you start seeing it all around you, and everybody wants this it's just we don't see it in the news and we don't see it in, I was so glad to see Steve Hartman show, I think.

32:10 And it is actually out there and I think the more people like you and your podcasts who are putting I mean I have no illusions my songs going to change the world that I keep thinking well, if a few people sing it and it's sort of like a mantra Be Kind

32:26 because songs get stuck in here, your head, you know, maybe it will remind someone and like you said well if it helps one person to be kinder, and, and, and I really believe that sometimes it can save a life literally save life just that moment of

32:44 kindness to someone who might just at that moment be in despair, really despair. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a is, is a, I like to think of it as our job is just to plant the seeds.

32:57 Yes, yes and then the whole force will grow green. Yeah, and to have a green forest. They all have to grow green. Yeah, right. Yeah.

33:06 Well, and I want to be respectful of your time and I'm so glad we have this conversation. Tell folks how they can get in touch with you and connect with you if they'd like to.

33:18 Oh, thank you. Well, they can go to my website, enlightenment for everyone.com.

33:25 And they can connect to me there. And that links to my songs and to my books. And that would be wonderful. Thank you. Can I make one last little point when you're talking about kindness spreading.

33:40 I think the last time I heard someone say that stress. It's much thicker, and it, it actually is spreads less were kindness and good thoughts and all goodness, it's much thinner it's not as heavy as stress, and therefore it spreads farther and faster.

34:02 Yeah, so and I think kindness does is, if everyone puts their attention on it. It does spread more so that was just yeah. Yes, that's great. That's great. So, yeah, well, and I'm so glad we got connected and will have and information here in the show notes.

34:20 And if you want to connect with the end and learn more about her work and what she's doing in the world. You can do it there so thanks again and Gordon Thank you so much and thank you for what you're doing and generating this important conversation.

34:35 Thanks.

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February 24, 2023February 24, 2023

Teresa Williams | Finding Kindness and Compassion In The Midst Of Broken Relationships | K&C 22

Love and compassion in divorce is an often misunderstood concept. Divorce is often seen as a negative thing, and there is a stigma attached to it that can be hard to overcome. In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with Teresa Williams, MA, MS, LPC about how love and compassion can be found even in the midst of a divorce.

When Teresa Williams, a licensed professional counselor in Huntsville, Alabama, went through her own divorce, she experienced the pain and loneliness that comes with it. She felt abandoned by family, friends, and even her church. This experience led her to start the Confident and Courageous Woman website, a coaching program designed to help women going through divorce.

Meet Teresa Williams

“With compassion and understanding, I serve individuals, families, and groups. Through offering practical help, I’ve watched them become hopeful as they maneuvered life in new circumstances. I am honored to sit with people in a variety of crises, life stages, relationship struggles, and painful situations. I am thankful to be a practical and hopeful voice.

My background includes a Bachelor’s degree in Human Resource Management, a Master of Arts Degree in Human Services Counseling from Liberty University, and a Master of Science in Counseling from Faulkner University. I am a Licensed Professional Counselor in Alabama. My counseling experience includes psychological assessments, working with adults, divorce recovery, women’s issues, and marital difficulties. I am a Prepare/Enrich pre-marital and marriage facilitator and a Board-Certified Life Coach. I am trained in Levels 1, 2 & 3 of Gottman Method Couples Therapy and lead seminars as a Gottman Leader of The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work couples program. I am a speaker for business and women’s conferences/events

I love traveling with my husband, spending time reading, listening to music, and playing with our dog, Ollie.”

Help Going Through a Process

As a therapist, Teresa understands the stages of the grief process. She said expressed you think you know what to expect “until you actually walk that path, and you start experiencing the grief on multiple levels. And a lot of times people don’t know what to do.” People don’t know what to say. They take sides or they don’t take sides and they just disappear. And it’s a very chaotic time, especially in the beginning. So being able to find the support and the kindness and compassion and what that looks like can help a lot of people. People don’t know how to do that because they haven’t walked through it. Or there is judgment. There’s so much stigma. You put the word divorce between, in front of, or behind any other word, and it’s always negative. And it shouldn’t be that way. “What I have found also is being able to help others understand how to walk alongside someone who is experiencing this devastating life change.”

Loves and Acceptance Through Spiritual Beliefs

Teresa Williams wants people to know “If we look at scripture, the only people that Jesus really condemned were the Sadducees and the Pharisees. And everyone else, He had compassion for. And not that he overlooks sin, but he didn’t condemn them. He did criticize, he showed love and support. People might think “Am I committing a sin? Is God ever going to forgive me? Can I ever remarry?” Teresa continues, “I’m not a theologian, but I do know what scripture says about Jesus and how he interacted with people, and he loved them, and he accepted them where they were. And regardless of whether you view it as a sin or a survival, God still loves you, and God still accepts you. And you can move on.” Sometimes we forget that Jesus extends grace and mercy to everyone. We want that same grace and mercy from Jesus, and we need to extend that to others around us, regardless of what they’re walking through.

Grace and Self-Care Navigating through Divorce

For a lot of people, the hardest person to give grace to is herself. Especially at the beginning. There’s so much chaos. Their world has just fallen apart, and they don’t know what to do. They don’t know where to turn to. Everything around them just got shattered. There’s a lot of fear. It’s hard to not feel overwhelmed. So, taking one step at a time and self-care can be forgotten. One of the hardest things for women, just in general is asking for help. It’s hard to say, “I need help with (fill in the blank).” There’s so much judgment and criticism around divorce, especially in the church. And so, a woman is fearful to even reach out even to friends and family.

Advice for helping Someone Going Through Divorce

Loneliness is a big issue. People do not know how to come alongside. They don’t know what to say or how to help this person. That’s hard for a lot of individuals. How other people can come alongside these individuals? Spiritually, pray for them. And maybe get them involved, such as going with them to a Bible study or to a weekly meeting that the churches have. If they’ve been ostracized by their church and they feel and they don’t feel comfortable anymore going to the church, how about saying, “Hey, how about coming with me on Sunday morning?” This time is hard because this person is grieving. There are a lot of tears. Teresa remembers thinking “The tears are never going to end, and the pain is never going to stop.” A big support would be if a person can just come alongside and let that person talk without offering advice. Let them cry without judgment. Don’t take sides, just be there for that person. Just being there, just being present.

Other things that we can do alongside is for the physical side. Do something to relieve the stress on that person. Offer to take them to dinner or lunch. Come over and cook dinner for them. Take them to a concert. Go on an activity. Teresa remembers “When I went through it my house was a disaster because I was working all kinds of crazy hours at the time. And, having a house that’s messy just adds one more burden to you. And I had a good friend who just came over and allowed me to cry. And she vacuumed my floor. She washed my dishes. It was such a comfort to me. It meant so much to me.” Do something for her so she can take care of herself. Let that woman take a hot bubble bath or just sit down and catch up on laundry. Do the things that show compassion and kindness to her in her time of need.

Advice on Healing

First, take your time and take your time and allow yourself to agree with all the emotions associated with the shock of it, the anger, and the disbelief. There will be times of bargaining and all the stages of grief. Allow yourself those emotions, don’t stuff them. Get a good friend that’s going to come alongside you and be there and encourage you. This friend is one that doesn’t offer advice but just radiates encouragement and love. And then go find a therapist. Go do your own work. Find the things that you need to take care of yourself. It’s a process. It’s not a one-and-done thing. It doesn’t mean that when the ink is dry on the divorce decree that all of a sudden life’s going to go back to some type of normal and you’re going to be okay. It doesn’t work like that. Remember, it’s a process.

There will be new stages and relearning. It is learning how to deal with the triggers. The sight smells, the taste that triggers you to your past, and learning how to cope with them and not allow them to take you down and derail you. Also understanding what the new norm is. Because there is a lot of adjustments. Maybe you didn’t get the house in the divorce, or maybe you have to move. And then the custody situation if there’s kids involved. Now you’re used to having your kids all the time around you. Suddenly they have to go over to dad’s house, for the weekend or every other week. That’s a major adjustment. During this time it is so vital not to isolate yourself. It would be natural, depending on the circumstances, that you don’t want to talk to people. You don’t want to put yourself out there. You don’t want to have to explain what happened for the hundredth time. Stay active and being a part of the community and having that support is really vital to your emotional health.

Final Message from Teresa

“For the person that is walking through [divorce] I just want to encourage them. If you’re willing to do the work, if you’re willing to keep moving forward, you will be okay. I can promise you that. “…What’s really important, is to know that there’s hope in healing beyond divorce, regardless of your circumstances.”

Teresa has free resources on her web page. Go to Confident and Courageous Woman for five tips for dealing with the Stress of Divorce. They can reach out Teresa through that website. She has coaching programs and she is getting ready to launch (soon) a membership program. in membership.

Transcript

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Gordon Brewer: Record. Okay, Go ahead. Hello
Teresa Williams: everyone. Welcome to this episode of Kindness and Compassion Podcast. I am so excited to be here with my friend Gordon. I'm Therea Williams, licensed professional counselor in Huntsville,
Gordon Brewer: Alabama. Perfect.
Hello everyone and welcome again to the Kindness and Compassion Podcast and I'm really looking forward to you to getting getting to hear from my guest today there, Williams. Welcome there. Thank you, Gordon. Glad to be here. Yes. And there I met and I actually met through my other podcast, the Practice of Therapy podcast, and I knew from our conversation that we really wanted to I wanted to get her on this podcast because I think she is Doing some work just with this whole intersection between spirituality and what it's like for people that are going through divorce, particularly women and that sort of thing.
So therea be tell folks about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Teresa Williams: Okay like I said before, I'm a licensed professional counselor and in my practice I see individual, I do married to family and I saw a need to be able to help women who, one, either walking through divorce or been divorced and maybe don't know what to do and stuck.
And I know those feelings personally because I have walked that journey. I was married for a hundred years. Not really, but it felt like it uhhuh and had children and had a spouse who committed adultery and it was a very public and nasty divorce. And I felt alone and abandoned, not by only family and friends, but also my church.
And so my hardest desire, Is to be able to help other women that, again, who are either currently walking through a divorce or been divorced for a while and don't have the support and the encouragement they need. . So I felt like the Lord was calling me. So I started a website separate from my.
Therapy practice called the competent and courageous woman. . And it is a coaching program just for that to be able to come along and work alongside other women experiencing divorce.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think it's a struggle. I know both of us are from the south, We talked about that before and I think just culturally, there's I think some misplaced stigmas around divorce and around people that are going through kind, the end of a marriage and there's a whole grieving process that occurs with that.
I know we talked about that previously, but I. In your work? What, I guess what I'm interested in, or I think maybe folks would be interested in, is it sounds like you went through a process of changing your mind about some things, just not only on the spiritual side of things, but just for you personally, and of course being a therapist to, you've got all the information, but when you experience it personally, it's a different thing.
So you wanna say something about all those things? Yeah,
Teresa Williams: it is. And like you say, being a therapist, I know all the grief stages and I know where you think you know what to expect until you actually walk that path and you start experience the grief on multiple levels. And a lot of times people don't know what to do.
They don't know what to say and they take. Or they don't take sides and they just disappear. And it's a very chaotic time, especially in the beginning. So being able to find the support and the kindness and compassion and what that looks like, a lot of people. Don't know how to do that because a either one, they haven't walked through it.
Or two from a judgmental sign like we talked about. There's so much stigma. You put the word divorce between, in front of or behind any other word, and it's always negative. And it shouldn't be that way. , what I have found also is being able to help others understand how to walk alongside someone who is experiencing this devastating life change.
.
Gordon Brewer: . Yes. Yeah. And I know one of the things I know just in my own work I'm also a marriage family therapist, and I think one of the struggles that people have as well is. Is just feeling like they are, for lack of a better term committing a sin by going through with a divorce and that sort of thing.
And so in your work with people around that, how do you help them navigate that and just really because that gets into our values and our beliefs and our faith and all of that sort of thing. How do you help people kinda walk through. Dilemma, so to speak.
Teresa Williams: If we look at scripture, the only people that Jesus really condemned were the Sadducees and the Pharisees.
And everyone else. He had compassion for right. And not that he overlooks sin. , but he didn't condemn them. , he did criticize, he showed love and support. And, they're so mis what I wanna say, interpretations of scripture. And regardless of what side of the fence you're on, whether you are the one that's wanting the divorce and.
the marriage is no longer working for whatever reason. Abuse. , whatever. And you feel like that you need to get out or your spouse is divorcing you and you're looking, you're going. Wait a minute. Am I committing a sin? Is God ever gonna forgive me? Can I ever remarried? And depending upon what orientation spiritually you stand on, one of the things that I don't try to get into mud.
I'm not a colo, but I do know what scripture says about Jesus and how he interacted with people and he loved them, and he accepted them where they were. . And regardless whether you view it as a sin or a survival, God still loves you, God still accepts you. And you can move on.
Gordon Brewer: And I think the other thing that's helpful to maybe understand is that the when the scriptures were written, and again, I'm not. I don't want to, I don't want to force my views on anyone else, but one of the things that I think is important to remember is that when the scriptures were written, it was in a totally different culture in totally different time.
Absolutely. And that and that you have to take that into context. Back in, back during those times, 2000 years ago, Women were just basically seen as property and not to be treated as any different than, , your animals or anything else. And I think one of the things again that Jesus that came through with that, with Jesus is that he did treat it with compassion.
And I think a lot of what was said in the New Testament about divorce, if you look at it through the lens of compassion, of really check making sure. That people are taken care of, that somebody's not left destitute, somebody's not left on the street to fend for themselves. That's a different way of looking at it because I think it's a, yeah, totally different culture and time.
Teresa Williams: Absolutely. And sometimes we forget that Jesus extends grace and mercy to everyone. Yes. And that we want that same grace and mercy from Jesus, and we need to extend that to others around us, regardless of what they're walking through.
Gordon Brewer: And I think it, I think the other thing too Is that's where self care comes into play.
And I think one of the, I think for a lot of people, the hardest person to give grace to is herself. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Theresa, with your work with folks that are of women in particular that are going through a this thing of divorce, what. What sort of themes do you see that you would, that you tend to try to help them navigate through?
Teresa Williams: I think there's, especially at the beginning, there's so much chaos. Their world has just fallen apart and they don't know what to do. They don't know where to turn to. Everything around them just got chattered. . And there's a lot of fear and, being able, just like you talk about, to say, Okay, don't get overwhelmed.
Let's take one step at a time. , let's do this self care. And I think one of the hardest things for women, just in general is asking for help is being able to reach out and say, I need, and fill in that blank. . A lot of times, like we talked about, there's so much judgment and criticism around divorce, especially in the church.
And so a woman is fearful to even reach out. And sometimes, like I said before, that even includes friends and family.
Gordon Brewer: . Yeah. And one of the, one of the things just in mental health, I think one of the things that just is Really at the root of a lot of mental health issues is this sense of being lonely or being alone.
And I think that when we can help people get connected and really kinda reassure them that there are other people out there that are being, that are willing to be with them on the journey, that's where a lot of healing can.
Teresa Williams: Absolutely. And you know when a lot of people don't know how to come alongside, they don't.
Because of before one, they have maybe never walked through it themselves or even had a friend or family member walk through it and they don't know what to do. They don't know what to say or how to help this person because if you look at them, they're a mess. . , and so that's part of the problem as.
Right,
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think that, if anybody is going through a divorce or going through a situation where they are, yeah, you. Maybe not feeling good about themselves or feeling kinda hopeless about their situation. That you, just to echo what you said is being able to reach out to the right people around that and being able to get that support.
I think the other thing too, that we kinda hinted at is that, There's a lot of grief involved in this and being able to allow someone to go through the grieving process and mourn, mourn what is happening.
Teresa Williams: Yeah. And that's hard for a lot of individuals. . And so if I could just speak for a second or two of how other people can come alongside these individuals.
Spiritually, if you know the. Pray for them, obviously. , and maybe get them involved offer for, to a Bible study or to a weekly meeting that the churches having. Or if they've been ostracized by their church and they feel, they don't feel comfortable anymore going to the church.
How about offering to say, Hey, how about coming with me on Sunday morning? And just come and worship with. and emotionally, it's really hard because this person is grieving. There's a lot of tears. In fact, I remember myself thinking the tears are never going to end.
, the pain is never gonna stop and. If a person can just come alongside and let that person talk without offering advice, and let them cry and no judgment. And the other side is don't take sides, just be there for that person.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think it's a our tendency as human beings is when we see someone else in pain is that we want to fix it for them and somehow or another take the pain.
But the truth of the matter is that the pain is there. And I think you're exactly right. It's just that journey alongside and being with there's a, I think there's a lot to be said for. What I like to refer to as the ministry of presence, of being just present with people and being able to just let them know that they're not alone in this.
That doesn't necessarily take the pain away, but it does provide a sense of comfort to some degree. And yeah. Yeah.
Teresa Williams: I really like that. Just being there, just being present. Other things that we can do alongside is for the physical side. , is maybe doing something to relieve stress on that person, like just being a friend, offering to take them to dinner or lunch and or coming over and cooking dinner for them.
, how about, taking 'em to a concert, offering them to go on activities or, I remember. When I went through it my house was a disaster because I was working all kinds of crazy hours at the time. And, having a house that's messy just adds one more burden to you. And I had a good friend who just came over and allowed me to cry.
And she vacuumed my floor. , she washed my dishes and it was such a comfort to me. , it meant so much to me. Whatever that is, that if someone is going through divorce and has small kids, they don't get a break most of the time. Yeah. Let the kids out for ice cream. Yeah. Let that woman take a hot bubble bath or just sit down and catch up on laundry.
. So those are things that we can show compassion and kind. To others.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, I love that. So is in your work as a therapist and just working with people that are going through these kinds of struggles with the, with a divorce or ending of a relationship and that sort of thing. What do you see as the tasks maybe that's not a great word, but what do you see as, what is the work of recovering from situations like this?
Teresa Williams: First of all is take your time and take your time and allow yourself to agree all the emotions associated with, the shock of it and the anger, the, the disbel belief. The bargaining, all the stages of grief. And allow yourself those emotions, don't stuff them. , get you a good friend that's going to come alongside you and be there and encourage you.
That doesn't offer advice, but just encouragement and love. And then go find a therapist. Go do your own work. I did that myself and. Find the things that you need to take care of you. , because it's a process. It's not a one and done thing. It doesn't mean that when the ink is dry on the divorce decree that all of a sudden life's gonna go back to some type of normal and you're gonna be okay.
, it doesn't work like that. I have a, it's a process.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of layers to it, and everybody's situation is a little different, but I think one of the things is, you're right, is finding a professional to talk to about it. Because as I think about it, there's not only.
The grief of it, but there might be some trauma associated with it, and a person being able to find, finding out about secrets that have been kept and all of that sort of thing. Dealing with that. The redefining of self, particularly for people that have been married for a while.
They define themselves in the context of a relationship. And so in, in many ways, you're having to redefine who you are as a person and all of that sort of thing. And so that, like you said, that's a process. And I think I remember a friend of mine who's also a therapist was talking about grief in terms of it's not something you get.
But it's something you get through and I think a lot of times to be able to just recognize that it's not necessarily something you're gonna get over and it's just gonna be done. But you're getting through it and it will crop up again. That's the nature of grief.
Teresa Williams: It is and learning how to deal with the triggers.
The sight smells, the taste that trigger you to your past and learning how to cope with them and not allowing them to take you down and derail you. And right. Also understanding what the new norm is. Because there is a lot of adjustments. Maybe you didn't get the house in the divorce, Maybe you have to move.
And then the custody situation with, if there's kids involved, now you're used to having your kids all the time around you, and now they have to go over to dad's house, for the weekend or every other week. That's a major adjustment. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: And I think that's yeah. And so I think, again, going full circle back to finding someone that can walk alongside you in that journey is gonna be one of the most helpful things that you, that anyone can do with that.
Absolutely. Yeah. And then finding a safe community to be in with all of that. And we're talking about church, but there are other different communities that people can be involved in to where they can get that support. And so really getting community and support.
Teresa Williams: Yeah, absolutely. That is so vital and not to isolate yourself, because a lot of times, depending on the circumstances, you don't wanna talk to people, you don't wanna put yourself out there, You don't wanna have to explain what happened for the Hunt or Tom and have somebody either a, not know what to say, or when they do say something, it's not helpful.
. And Active and staying, aware of being involved in the community and having that support is really vital to your emotional
Gordon Brewer: health. Yes. Therea I, I wanna be respectful of your time, but what are some other parting thoughts that maybe you have just around this topic and just thinking about how people can live into kindness and compassion around divorce, particularly if for folks that maybe find it a little bit.
Teresa Williams: Is, first of all, I would say to those who find it troubling, we don't live with that couple, We don't know what has gone on in that marriage. , we weren't there, so we don't really have a right to judge. , we don't have a right to criticize because we don't know, we didn't live with them and vice versa.
If we're married, people don't live with us, hopefully. And so they don't know what goes on behind closed doors. . And having that compassion and kindness around it for that person who's walking that path is so vital. . And for the person that is walking through it I just wanna encourage them.
You will get. , if you're willing to do the work, if you're willing to keep moving forward, you will be okay. , I can promise you that. , and that's what's really important, is to know that there's hope in healing beyond divorce, regardless of your circumstances.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. That's great.
That's great. Theresa, tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they have questions or want to connect with.
Teresa Williams: I have a free handout. If they wanna go to Confident and courageous woman.com. , there is a free handout, It's five tips for dealing with the Stress of Divorce.
They can reach out to me through that website at Teresa at Confident and Courageous Woman and I have coaching programs and we're getting ready to launch hopefully soon in membership. So they can reach out and I would be glad to talk with
Gordon Brewer: them. Awesome. And we'll have links here in the show notes and the show summary for all of this.
Teresa, it's good to reconnect again and hope you as we're recording this, we're moving full force into the holiday season. So I hope you have a great holidays and Thank you. You too. And all of that kinda fun stuff. Alrighty.
Teresa Williams: Thank
Gordon Brewer: you. It's been a pleasure. Yes, mine too.

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February 14, 2023February 14, 2023

Caroline Vogel & Billy Daniel | Living Into Self Kindness and Compassion | K&C 21

In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with The Rev. Caroline Vogel and The Rev. Dr. Billy Daniel about how we can practice kindness and compassion by reaching out to those around us, offering a helping hand, and showing understanding and empathy. They also talk about ways to build bridges between different communities, cultures, and beliefs by listening to each other and trying to understand one another’s perspectives. One of the most important practices to foster kindness and compassion is self-compassion. Self-compassion is the practice of being kind to oneself and recognizing that we all make mistakes and have flaws. It is important to recognize that we all have our own unique set of experiences and that we can learn from our mistakes.

Introducing Billy and Caroline

I’m so glad for you to get to know Caroline Vogel and Billy Daniel. They are friends of mine from my work in the Episcopal Church. Both Caroline and Billy are Episcopal priests serving in Knoxville, Tennessee at Church of the Ascension.

The Rev. Dr. Billy Daniel is a priest, poet, theologian and the rector at Church of the Ascension and author of Christ in the Liturgy and Inhabited By Grace; The Incarnate Way of Love. Billy works with congregations and individuals to help deepen their spiritual lives. He has a podcast, Fr. Billy Daniel which features sermons, homilies and spiritual reflections.

The Rev. Caro line Vogel serves as The Director for Spiritus Knox a center for spiritual learning and practice in Knoxville, Tennessee. Spiritus Knox is a gathering place for anyone and everyone who is looking for some sacred space to find some ease and spiritual wellness and connect with others seeking to do the same. We offer weekly gatherings on Sunday Evenings in addition to retreats throughout the year. On occasion we have the good fortune to host authors to share about their books, passion and connect with us who seek to explore with them. You can learn more about Spiritus Knox at our website: www.spiritusknox.com. Caroline also has a podcast, Mindful Christians; living embodied faith.

Make Space for Community

Caroline said that what we’re trying to do in Ascension is really make space for people to reimagine what the church is and how they can be part of it. How they can connect to it so that they experience a new way of living out their spiritual life and connecting with God. They are fond of saying “Ascension as a seminary for the city, which is really a fancy way of saying that we are a space that cultivates a certain kind of soil that enriches the community and the lives of those around us.”

Why do we need kindness and compassion

Gordon has been thinking about the need for kindness and compassion for a while. “One of the things that I really noticed in my work as a therapist is that how much people were hurt.” He notices just how isolated people are from each other. “How do we live into more kindness and compassion, not only with each other, but with ourselves because we, we have a relationship to ourselves first and then to the world.”

Gordon has been working with people in the therapy office and also serving in the church. He works with people that have been through trauma. People who have been through some horrific things in their lives. He works to help people find much greater sense of contentment and peace in their lives by the different ways they can practice kindness and compassion.

Ways to practice kindness and compassion

How do you help people move past the polarization in our society and embrace kindness and compassion? The practices are very simple but complicated at the same time. People need to find something that works for them.
One way to practice more kindness and compassion is mindfulness. Just being self-aware. Being aware of what is going on for you internally as well. Mindfulness is being able to think about what you’re thinking about. Being aware of that and how it’s affecting you physically and emotionally and spiritually.

Another way is the practices of gratitude are really looking at what you have rather than what you don’t have. Be aware of what you have and be grateful.
As simple as this sound is, doing simple acts of kindness out in the world increases our capacity to experience kindness and compassion. And so that just kind of behavior perpetuates itself. Living into kindness and compassion is really getting curious about others. Being kind can get us unstuck from the loop of criticism and defensiveness. Change that up. Instead of becoming defensive when we’re faced with something that maybe we don’t agree with or faced with criticism of some sort, is to get curious about what is going on with that other person in their life. Ask questions and just get curious with the other person.

Give room for kindness and compassion

We all have a filter. When we become more aware of our filter it gives us room to be able to see things from another perspective. Gordon has an optical illusion in his office that can look like a young woman or an old woman, depending on how you look at it. Is it an old woman or is it a young woman? And the truth of the matter is it’s not either or it’s both. One of the things about leaning into kindness and compassion is being willing to embrace both and rather than the either or. This opens us up to empathy, allowing room for kindness and compassion. When you understand what is going on in the background for someone, then there is no room for the spirit of judgment.

Deeper awareness by practicing kindness and compassion

No matter how much they pour their heart open to us, we do not know exactly what they are going though. It’s their story. When they share it with us, and we receive it as they offer it with a nonjudgmental and curious posture it enables us to receive them as they are. Which again opens us to a deeper awareness of who they are. We create a kind of space together. We all become more fully alive in the process. And, and that’s the whole beauty of the spirit of generosity, this curiosity and receiving. Practice listening. Practice being curious the whole time. Practice holding them gently. That is the essence of kindness and compassion.

Show notes by James Marland, CCS

Transcript

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Caroline: And Compassion With a guest. With a guest. Gordon Brewer. So Gordon, will you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Gordon Brewer: Well, sure. Thanks for, thanks for having me. Yes. I'm a, um, I'm a deacon in the Episcopal Church and so, uh, uh, really a deacons ministry is really more in the world than anything else. But I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in private practice in Kingsport t.
and I work with both, uh, couples and individuals on just, uh, any array of, of, you know, problems that people might have. And, um, yeah. And then the other thing that I do that I think is a lot of fun is I also have a podcast called The Kindness and Compassion. Podcasts where really, um, it's a podcast about ending the, kind of the division and polarization in the world and really looking at how we can look at the intersection of psychology, religion, spirituality, and how we can live into more kindness and compassion in our lives.
Wow, that's great.
Caroline: That's wonderful.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. Okay, so
Billy: let's see.
Gordon Brewer: It's not picking up quite as well as I hoped for, but
Billy: like Sarah,
Gordon Brewer: the sign there? No, but
Caroline: she's got crispy her donuts.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. First name and last name again. Billy Daniel. Billy Daniel. I wanted to say Bob. I don't know why. Billy. Bob. Billy Bob? Mm-hmm.
Okay. All right, here we go. Hello folks, and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so glad for you to get to know today. Caroline Vogel and bought Billy.
Caroline: Daniel .
Gordon Brewer: I had Billy Bob in my
Caroline: head. Sorry I messed you up. That's
Gordon Brewer: good. All right, we'll start over. Okay. My fault. My fault. It's okay,
Well, hello folks and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so glad for you to get to know Caroline Vogel and Billy Daniel, who are friends of mine from my work in the Episcopal Church. But welcome Caroline and.
Caroline: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for, thanks for having us. We're excited to be on your podcast.
Gordon Brewer: Yes.
And as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit about yourself and how you've. Landed where you've landed. Mm.
Billy: You should go first.
Caroline: Okay. So, so I'm Caroline and I'm an Episcopal priest serving in Knoxville, Tennessee at Church of the Ascension. Billy and I actually serve there together.
Um, I serve as the associate priest for, um, adult formation and we started a new center called, uh, spirit Two Snacks, which is a center for spiritual learning and. Um, we're offering a variety of things, including retreats and, uh, teaching people about different spiritual tools. And one Sunday night we get together and breathe together.
Mm-hmm. . Um, we have a Celtic service and a, um, a book study each month. So we're just doing a, a lot of different kinds of things to help people experience community. Around, uh, their spiritual lives. Mm-hmm. , um, maybe especially those that, uh, Sunday morning's not quite working for them anymore or not working so well.
Um, yeah,
Gordon Brewer: yeah, yeah.
Billy: So, yeah. So I'm Billy Daniel. I'm the, uh, rector at Church of the Ascension in Knoxville, Tennessee. I've been here for all of eight. And I am an Episcopal priest and, and grateful to serve here in Ascension and, and to be a part of a lot of the stuff that we are doing. And so, as Caroline mentioned, she's the director of Spirit two Snots, which is a new initiative, uh, that we started in March, maybe June, June.
June. It was June. June. And, and there. What we're trying to do in Ascension is really make space for people to, um, reimagine what the church is and, and how they can be part of it and connected to it so that they experience. Um, a new way of living out their spiritual life and connecting with God. And, and part of that's through initiatives like Spirit Two, snots Others is something I'm fond of saying is, um, Ascension as a seminary for the city, which is really a, um, a fancy way of saying that we are a space that cultivates.
Um, a certain kind of soil that enriches the community, the lives of those around us, so that we foster growth all over. And, and so I'm grateful to be there and it's, it's good work that we're doing. And so thanks for having us here on the podcast.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, it's really needed work and just bringing, getting people to think about their spiritual lives in maybe a much different way.
Yeah. That's it. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Okay. Is that good to, just for the intro? Yeah. That's good. Mm-hmm. . Okay.
Caroline: Okay. So now we'll do the body.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. Okay.
Billy: So we'll, um, how do we wanna start? We gonna start it as a
Caroline: Why don't, Hmm.
Why don't we, why don't we start by talking, although, how would that work for your podcast if we're talking about, well, spiritual practices of kindness and compassion?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, we can. Well, we can. You know what we can do? I'm not sure exactly. My mine is very conversational. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so I think it'll work in that.
Okay,
Billy: fabulous. So maybe we do, um, a separate little piece. Mm-hmm. where we talk about where we do, we kind of already do that.
Caroline: We kindness and compassion.
Billy: Yeah. I dunno what you're. I'm just thinking, do we need a separate set of, well,
Caroline: why don't we do the, why don't we just have the conversation and I think we'll know what we need after we have the conversation.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. . Great. Yeah.
Caroline: So I'm so excited to have this conversation today about kindness and compassion. Mm-hmm. and, um, Gordon, let's, let's start with you. Yes. Um, since you have a whole podcast on kindness and compassion, how did you get interested? Um, what, why, why a podcast on kindness and compassion.
Gordon Brewer: Well, it's a, it, it's something that I've been thinking about for, for some time, but I think as much as anything, I think, um, hopefully we can, we can safely say here, post Covid, one of the things that I really noticed in my work as a therapist is that how much people were hurt.
Um, just around being isolated from each other. But then on top of that, we had a whole, this whole phenomenon of the, the George Floyd murder and mm-hmm. and all of the polarization that we're seeing in our country and just around, around the world. And one of the things that I wanted to do was just have conversations with folks around.
How do we live into more kindness and compassion, not only with each other, but with ourselves because we, we have a relationship to ourselves first and then to the world, and so really just learning from other people how they're living into that. And with that comes an intersection I think for most people into the, into the realm of spirituality.
Kind of my purview has been working with people in therapy and psychology and that sort of thing. I wear two hats and then I'm a clergy person in the church, but also, um, You know, work with people that have been through trauma, been through some horrific things in their lives, and really just helping people find much greater sense of contentment and peace in their lives by the different ways they can practice kindness and compassion.
Billy: So you, you mentioned practice, so that's something we are pretty keen on. Mm-hmm. , um, especially in talking about on, on our own podcast, becoming fully alive and. What are the practices? Like what, what maybe what are the practices that you notice? That you are making accessible to people that you work with mm-hmm.
that really is helping them to foster that kindness and compassion and move past the polarization in, in their own
Gordon Brewer: lives. Right. Right. That's a great question. And the thing about it is, is that, So I like to think about the practices is that they are, um, very simple but complicated at times. , I mean, there's just a lot of different avenues and I think that people, when they are, um, when they're really seeking it, um, they have to find something that works for them.
But the things that come to mind, and these are familiar terms that I think a lot of people are hearing. One is mindfulness just being. Self aware and aware of what is going on for you internally, um, of being able. Mindfulness is really, I, I think of it as being able to think about what you're thinking about.
Mm-hmm. and being aware of that and how it's affecting you physically and emotionally and spiritually and that sort of thing. The practices of gratitude are really looking at what you have rather than what you don't have, and really trying, trying to, um, You know, figure out what those things are. The other thing too, or just as simple as this sound is, is just doing simple acts of kindness out in the world.
You know, one, one little thing that, uh, gets started in my town sometimes there's a, we've got a local, um, kind of fast food restaurant called pals, and it's, uh, it's this really kind of quirky kind of drive through kind of thing. But every now and then somebody. Drive up to the drive through and they'll say, let me pay for the person behind me.
Mm-hmm. . And so that just kind of perpetuates itself and that sort of thing. Um, the other thing too, I think in living into kindness and compassion is really getting curious about others. Uh, one, one of the things that can happen. Just in relationships is we can get stuck in this loop of, of criticism and defensiveness.
Mm-hmm. and, and if we become aware of that, we can change that. Change that up instead of becoming defensive when we're faced with something that maybe we don't agree with or faced with criticism of some sort, is to get curious about what is going on with that other person in their life. Yeah. And so being able to ask questions and just get curious with the other person.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Caroline: We've been talking a little bit about the spirit of generosity. Mm-hmm. , so that the assumptions that we make about people, the way that we're curious, that we're being generous in that approach, right? Mm-hmm. , that, that we're assuming the best instead of assuming the worst and, um, And I appreciate that what you're talking about, where you started with around mindfulness and being aware mm-hmm.
of how we're thinking, you know? Mm-hmm. and how we're thinking about how we're thinking. Mm-hmm. and cuz I think that that plays out a whole lot more than, than we know that it does. Mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. the lens in which we're seeing someone or a situation, uh, really has a huge impact on what happens next.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. We, we, we, we all have a filter and, and it's, um, we don't, um, I think when the more we can become aware of our filter, It gives us room to be able to see things from another perspective. Mm-hmm. , I was, I was sharing as, as we're recording this, we were at a, a clergy retreat and we were sharing, uh, in our groups just about some different things around, um, you know, what, what are our vulner vulnerable places?
And, um, you know, the context at which we were sharing it was the scripture just around. Um, Mary Magdalene going to the empty tomb, and what was her experience around that? But one, one of the things, an image, a metaphor that came up for me is that, um, I have this picture that I, I use with clients in my office sometimes, and it's an optical illusion of this and a lot of people have seen it.
It's, uh, if you look at it one way, it looks like an older woman. And if you look at it another way, it looks like a younger. It. And one, one of the things that we have to do in order to see it one way or another is our brain has to make this switch. Mm-hmm. . And so one of the things that I do for fun is ask people, okay, what is it a picture of?
Is it an old woman or is it a young woman? And the truth of the matter is it's not either or. It's both. And it's both and yes. And, and so I think one of the things. Living into kindness and compassion is being willing to embrace the both and rather than the either or.
Caroline: Yes. And, and one thing that I'm finding myself really curious about, and I've been curious about this for a while, is how, and you, you named it quickly earlier.
Um, Our practice of self-compassion. Mm-hmm. , and I really appreciate Kristin Neff's work on this. Mm-hmm. , and she breaks it down into three main things of, do I talk to myself, the way I would talk to someone that I love. Um, a sense of common humanity. Mm-hmm. , um, you know, is. Remembering that I'm not the only one who's ever been through this.
I'm not the only one who's ever had this emotion, um, or felt like this. And then with a sense of a sense of mindfulness mm-hmm. , um, and, and being aware. Of, you know, how we're feeling and, and, and providing ourselves. Mm-hmm. some, some, some empathy around our own feelings. Not being afraid to feel the feelings.
Right. Um, and, and I think it's so interesting what we do as Christians. With self-compassion. Like I've worked with people who really struggled. I mean, my, myself at times. Mm-hmm. struggled with, you know, is it okay to be compassionate towards myself? Mm-hmm. , I mean, is that, is that even Christian? Yes. You know, is that, is that okay?
Mm-hmm. , do you run
Gordon Brewer: into this? Yes. You know, one, one of the things that, um, we can do, and this is something I've had to learn for myself, and we, Caroline and I were having the conversation earlier about the Enneagram and the fact that I'm an Enneagram two and one of the things that two Engram two s can fall into as we can be real in tune with helping others, which the Engram two is the.
Helping others, but we, we don't know how to help ourselves. Mm-hmm. . And one, one, again, a metaphor that I like is if you think about, um, when we fly and you get on a plane, and the first thing they do is go through this safety routine, and the one thing they tell you about that is that the oxygen mask comes down is to put your own on first.
Mm-hmm. . Because if you're not taking care of yourself first, Our ability to take care of others is greatly diminished. Yeah. And so I think that, you know, I think a lot of times we think about as being maybe a little selfish or I'm just thinking about myself, but really if you think about it, it is, is a way of really making sure that we.
Or have our best ability to help others. Um, yeah. Yes.
Caroline: Right. Because if we keep sacrificing ourselves, we really don't have much to authentically mm-hmm. , um, be able, be able to, to offer in terms of kindness or compassion with
Gordon Brewer: other people. Yeah. Yeah.
Billy: Yeah. And I like how you kind of began, um, as we started having this conversation with gratitude mm-hmm.
as, as one of those practices. And, and it seems at as, um, as we were just kind of talking about self-compassion and, and having compassion for others, I just wonder about the practice of being grateful. And, and that sense of gratitude and, and how it might open us to a deeper sense of compassion and even self-compassion.
Mm-hmm. and because it, it orients our attention toward the things that, that are actually helping us flourish as per persons. Yes. Right? Yes. And, and can, um, Maybe Reor reorient us just enough that the thing that, uh, we might be struggling with, um, doesn't consume us. Yes. Doesn't consume our attention. And then from that space of gratitude, we can look back on
Mm-hmm. , whatever that might be, with a certain kind of kindness.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. It's, you know, it's interesting with, uh, my work as a therapist, um, Work with a lot of folks struggling with depression, anxiety, and those kinds of things. And when you think about it, when people are really in the throes of depression or if they're struggling with anxiety, which those two, those two states are go hand in hand.
Mm-hmm. , I mean, it's just that you don't, you very rarely see one without the other, but it's a very much an inward focus. You know, they get consumed with what's going on with themselves. Mm-hmm. and when they can, when they start to heal, you see that shift of focus of being more outward. Yeah. They, they start being able to engage with the world more, engage with others more, and, and also being able to, you know, that whole focus of changing of from what I don't have to what I do have.
Yes. And so, yeah.
Billy: And it cultivate. So gratitude cultivates a certain kind of mindfulness, right? Mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. . And, and the more I become mindful of things for which I am grateful, it, it opens me to a deeper awareness of other people in, in a compassionate way. And, and what I'm, um, just thinking about my own experience, there's, there's a sense in which when I can name the things for which I am grateful.
I become a little bit more sensitive to all the things. That makes it hard for others to be grateful. Mm-hmm. and, and when I can be a little bit curious about how hard it was initially for me to start naming all the things for which I'm grateful mm-hmm. and still do it. I, I know that somebody else might be having that same struggle mm-hmm.
and, and I can remain curious with them, with the spirit of generosity, knowing. Hmm. Maybe there's something I can do to help them shift their orientation toward gratitude. Mm-hmm. , instead of going, that person's driving me crazy. Yes. Mm-hmm. , I, I can't stand when they do that. Mm-hmm. . So instead of entering that space of judgment from that place of gratitude, I begin to think, Hmm, how might I be a conduit?
Gratefulness mm-hmm. so that they too might, uh, enter that space with me and, and we can walk this way together. Right,
Gordon Brewer: right. Yeah. It's a, it's a, one way I think about this as well is. Being able to learn the other person's story. Yeah. Because when you, when you understand what is going on in the background for, for someone, then that, that judgment can kinda, it gives us room to not be so judgmental.
Mm-hmm. , because we understand. What they've been through, what they, what their life has been like. Why, why they might see the world as they see it. Or as I ask my clients a lot of times, as you know, why do, why do you think you are like you are? Yeah. You know, what has, what, what are the things that have happened to you in your life to be able to, to operate in this way?
And the thing about it is, is that most of us, We don't realize it until we start practicing mindfulness and gratitude and those kinds of things. Um, we can, there, there's a little part of our brain called the amygdala and it's there totally to keep us safe and to keep us alive. And what happens is, is that we, when we're traumatized or we, we are, you know, going through hard times or whatever, that part of our brain can kind of take over.
And so we're operating out of fear and out of, um, in a survival mode and when we can get curious with others. That gives them a little more safety and then we can begin to have a conversation and that it's a safe place for them to be and, and, and, and that sort of thing. Yeah.
Billy: It, you know, it really, it really gets that, um, that space is something we create together.
Mm-hmm. , you know, it's not just something we occupy at the same time mm-hmm. , but we're actually cultivating space with others by. , we relate to them. Yes. So kindness, generosity, gratefulness, and so I mean, what you just put your finger on that sense. If, if I can be curious and, and have that spirit of generosity toward another person.
It really opens them to that new vulnerable space that they may have been waiting for. Mm-hmm. , but not quite sure how to enter in. Right, because it wasn't there. And so we create it together. Mm-hmm. and, and as we live into it together, the space that we're creating, it enables us all to experience that deeper aliveness in, in a safe, in that safe space that we are creating.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, yeah. You know, it's kind of. . You know, every time I see you, Caroline, I'm always reminded of Brene Brown . I just, I know you're a big fan as well, but one of the, one of the lines that she uses a lot is the story we tell ourself. Mm-hmm. , but we also tell stories to ourselves about others.
Totally. And so, well, we can get some truth around the story about the. That opens up a whole new possibility. Yes.
Caroline: And you know, one of the things I've been thinking about too though, is we don't always have the privilege of knowing someone else's story. Right? Right. I mean, for a variety of reasons. We may never know.
Um, and it are there ways in which even without getting to know the story, we can still come to the table, come to the conversation. Hold that person, um, with a regard of, of a spirit of generosity and, and with kindness and compassion, even if we don't know mm-hmm. and we may never know.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Billy: Yeah. Cause we, cause we, we can't fully understand another person's story.
No. No matter how, how much they pour their heart open to us. Mm-hmm. . Because it's their story and, and so they share it with us, and if we hold that with them and receive it as they offer it mm-hmm. then, then it does in that nonjudgmental posture enable us to remain curious mm-hmm. and, and actually receive them as they are.
Mm-hmm. , which, which again opens them to. A deeper awareness of who they are. Yes. Um, a deeper awareness of the goodness of life. That's all around us. And, and, and we, again, create a kind of space together and, and, and we all become more fully alive in the process. And, and that's the whole beauty of the spirit of generosity, this curiosity mm-hmm.
and, and being responsible to. That aliveness in others. Mm-hmm. , not just thinking, oh, that's how they are, but just receiving them. Mm-hmm. listening and, and just really, really being curious the whole time. Mm-hmm. and holding them gently. Mm-hmm. .
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yeah. And that to me, that's the essence of kindness and compassion.
Mm-hmm. , I mean, that's just being able to, um, That, that gentleness that you, you speak of is, is really because there's, um, you know, all of us, uh, are, are fragile in different ways and being able to have, um, compassion for that fragility. Am I making a word here? But, um, yeah, and, and I think that's really where, where it starts, where we can really begin to change.
The discourse that we have with people. Mm-hmm. . Um,
Caroline: and I think too, that Jesus has so much to teach us about this. I mean, throughout the gospels,
Billy: that's how you bring up Jesus everywhere. Right. So
Caroline: much to teach. So much to teach is that he, but he's constantly, I mean, compassion is about turning towards Yes.
And, and with a, like a, a warmth in our being and in a sense of just like you're saying, And Billy's saying too gentleness and, um, and, and Jesus turns towards so many people, uh, who everybody else has written off. And, and not only written off, but have justified themselves for not turning towards, it's like, oh, well, I'm not gonna turn towards them.
Like that's, that would make me unclean. Or that. So there's all these ways and we, we still. We have all these ways that we don't turn towards people. Mm-hmm. , um, it's painful to turn towards people who are hurting and suffering and in pain and, and yet that's the example of Jesus over and over again.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
It comes, it comes back down to vulnerability of being able to have the courage to be vulnerable with, with others. Yes. And even, you know, Being able to approach someone that you know is maybe hurting or is, is struggling with life or they're just, they're, they're being outcast by everybody.
Caroline: Well, and this is where I think self-compassion is so incredibly helpful too, right?
Gordon? Is that. Um, when I turn towards someone else's pain and I'm not okay and haven't been present to my own mm-hmm. , it makes it really hurt hard to turn towards because it's going to touch down in my own pain. Oh yeah. We're social creatures. It's how it happens.
Billy: Well, because what we're doing right is we're.
We're turning away from ourselves and our own pain. Mm-hmm. . And so, so before we can turn toward others, we need to turn toward ourselves and just Right. Sort of own it and work through it and find our way through and be gentle toward
Caroline: ourselves. Yes. Mm-hmm. . But, and I guess you're right, that, that it does work both ways in that sometimes we dodge our own pain and suffering by turning towards someone else's.
Mm. and sometimes we don't turn towards other people's pain because somehow some way it's gonna touch down in our own. Right. Right, right. So whatever way you flip the coin mm-hmm. , you do have to turn towards your own pain. Mm-hmm. . And the more you can do so with kindness and compassion. Yeah. Following that example of Jesus that.
The better it's gonna go not only for yourself, but when you turn towards other people. Right. Um, in a genuine place of serving rather than I have to, or I should, or it's the right thing to do. Mm-hmm. . Cause people know when you're turning towards them. Mm-hmm. in a true spirit of generosity with an open, big, open, grateful heart.
Mm. For life versus turning towards their pain cuz they're that like drudgery. Mm-hmm. , you know, like, oh God, I can't believe I have to be doing this right now. Right. And people can feel it regardless of the words that you use.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. And I think that's what, you know, here we are talking about Jesus. I think that's why Jesus drew people in, because people sensed his, his genuineness and the fact that he.
You know, and just embody that, that way of being,
Caroline: that that deep level of care. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Billy: And. And gentleness is a fruit
Caroline: of the spirit. I know. I was thinking the same thing. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. Yes.
Billy: And I love, you know, Paul writes in his letter to Titus, he says, um, let your gentleness be known by all mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. . And, you know, and Paul has a wonderful way of talking about these things. You know, the only, the only place where Paul talks. Competing is to compete in love. Mm-hmm. , the only thing that you need to let everybody know about is your gentleness. Yes. And, and it's just wonderful. You know, these are, these are not prideful things.
These are, these are ordinary practices to which we give our lives as followers of Jesus. Mm-hmm. and, and just good humans in the world. Mm-hmm. that enable. To have, have a shared sense of our humanity to live gently. I mean, I, I think, uh, is it amus, um, uh, live gently while comely with God? Mm-hmm. and gentleness is such a part of what it really means to be human.
Yes.
And
Caroline: Oh, and how we have forgotten that. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Oh, well, let's say, you know, it's how we start out in life. Mm. I mean, that's, that, that is absolutely what we have to have when we're born. Mm. The baby has to be held. Mm-hmm. , and it has to be gazed. The mom and mom and dad need to gaze into the baby's eyes with love and gentleness and kindness, and, and if that doesn't, , then bad things start happening.
Mm-hmm. , and we carry that all the way through our lives. Yeah. I mean, it's, we have this innate desire to connect in that way. Yes. You know, we, we mess it up with a lot of other stuff in lives, in our lives, but at our very core, we have to have that gentleness and that that closeness and the, the, just the, the image of, you know, a mom holding her.
It. Mm-hmm. is, is what we, what we. What we have to have in order to, in order to thrive. In order to thrive.
Caroline: That's what I was thinking too, in order to thrive. Yeah. You know one thing about this too, though, um, Kristen Neff, going back to her work for a minute, her most recent book is called Fierce Compassion.
And she talks about this yin yang of compassion, that we think of it as this gentle, uh, motherly warm, and there is that side of compassion. And we also have to bring in. That other side of compassion, um, that calls sometimes for action, that calls for that tougher love mm-hmm. . Um, and, and it's really that, that creates a wholeness.
Yes. Um, And, and I, I have appreciated even chewing on that.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's a, it's about, you know, it's that balance between being open with people and vulnerable with people, but also having boundaries Yes. To that. Yes. I mean, it's, um, you know, I think about a toddler, you know, a toddler wants to explore and, and get out, but if they don't have those boundaries, don't have, you know, a parent or a caregiver to reign them in.
That can, that can get outta control for them. So we need need those, both the both of those pieces. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , I think it's
Caroline: important. Well, wow. This has been a great conversation.
Billy: I know. It's been fabulous.
Caroline: It's been wonderful, Gordon, thank
Gordon Brewer: you. Yes, yes. Thank you all.
Billy: Thanks for the work that you're doing.
Thanks.

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January 25, 2023January 27, 2023

Gregg Behr & Ryan Rydzewski | When You Wonder; The Enduring Lessons of Mister Rogers | K&C 20

In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with Gregg Behr and Ryan Rydzewski about their book, “When You Wonder You’re Learning: Mr. Rogers Enduring Lessons for Raising Creative, curious, caring Kids”. They discuss unconventional wisdom of Fred Rogers and what he taught in his PBS program for children (and adults), “Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood”. They discuss the importance of teaching children emotional intelligence and how to live into more kindness and compassion.

Meet Gregg Behr & Ryan Rydzewski

Gregg Behr, executive director of The Grable Foundation, is a father and children’s advocate whose work is inspired by his hero, Fred Rogers. For more than a decade, he has helped lead Remake Learning—a network of educators, scientists, artists, and makers he founded in 2007—to international renown. Formed in Rogers’ real-life neighborhood of Pittsburgh, Remake Learning has turned heads everywhere from Forbes to the World Economic Forum for its efforts to ignite children’s curiosity, encourage creativity, and foster justice and belonging in schools, libraries, museums, and more. A graduate of the University of Notre Dame and also Duke University, Gregg holds honorary degrees from Carlow University and Saint Vincent College. He’s an advisor to the Brookings Institution and the Fred Rogers Center, and has been cited by Barack Obama and the Disruptor Foundation as an innovator and thought leader. Visit his website: www.greggbehr.com

Ryan Rydzewski is award-winning author, reporter, and speechwriter whose science and education stories span everything from schools to space travel to Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood. A graduate of the University of Pittsburgh, he taught elementary school in south Louisiana before earning an MFA in nonfiction writing from Chatham University.

In addition to his work for nonprofits — reports, speeches, op-eds, and the like he writes feature stories and creative pieces that have appeared in Pittsburgh Magazine, Hippocampus, and elsewhere.

Ryan was born and grew up in Erie, Pennsylvania. For almost a decade, he has been living in Pittsburgh, where you can find him writing, running, or lounging in the yard with his wife, Jacqueline, and their (very) old-soul beagle, Walter. Visit his website at ryanrydzewski.com

WhenYouWonder.org

The Real Mr. Rogers

If you grew up watching “Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood,” you may remember Fred Rogers as the kind, gentle man who sang songs and told stories about his beloved puppets. But what you may not know is that Mr. Rogers was also a learning scientist who had a deep understanding of how children learn and grow.

When You Wonder, You’re Learning

In their new book, “When You Wonder You’re Learning: Mr. Rogers Enduring Lessons for Raising Creative, curious, caring Kids,” authors Ryan Rydzewski and Greg Behr delve into the lessons that Mr. Rogers left behind and explore why they are still relevant today.

(Being transparent; the link to the book above is an affiliate link. This just means we receive a small commission with no extra cost to you if you use the link. Thanks for using the link!)

As educators and parents themselves, Ryan and Greg understand the importance of fostering a love of learning in children. In a world where there is so much emphasis on testing and standardized measures of success, it can be easy to lose sight of the fact that learning is a process of exploration and discovery. Mr. Rogers’ message of love and compassion is just as important today as it was when he first appeared on our television screens, and his blueprints for learning can help us raise children who are creative, curious, and caring.

Creating a Safe and Welcoming Space

Fred Rogers, the host of “Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood,” was known for his slow, deliberate approach to teaching and learning, which he believed created an atmosphere conducive to learning and exploration. This included creating a safe, welcoming space where questions could be asked and answered and where children felt like they belonged. In their book, “When You Wonder Your Learning: Mr. Rogers Enduring Lessons for Raising Creative, curious, caring Kids,” authors Ryan Rydzewski and Greg Behr explore the importance of this approach to learning, particularly in an era where there is so much focus on testing and standardization. They also discuss the concept of deep listening and loving speech, which is essential for creating an atmosphere of acceptance and growth.

Conclusion

If you’re a fan of Mr. Rogers or are simply looking for ways to support your children’s learning and growth, this book is must-read. Ryan and Greg’s insights and insights from learning scientists around the world offer a fresh perspective on how to approach education and parenting in the 21st century. It’s a great place to start in teaching our kids the importance of kindness and compassion in an increasingly polarized world.

Transcript

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Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast and I'm really happy for you all to get to know today, Ryan Zeki and Greg Bayer, uh, who have a book that I think you really are gonna wanna learn about and that book. And their book is When You Wonder, you're learning. Mr. Rogers enduring lessons for raising creative and Curious and Caring Kid. So welcome Ryan and Greg.
Ryan Rydzewski: Thank you so much for having us. We're happy to be here.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Um, so as I start with most everyone, tell folks a little bit about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Ryan Rydzewski: Sure. So, uh, this is Ryan. Um, my name is Ryan Zeki. I am a, uh, science and education writer, and I'm also a former elementary school teacher. So how did I end up here working on a book with Greg? Uh, well, . I taught fourth and fifth grade down in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And I eventually made my way back home to Pittsburgh, which is of course the real life home of, of Fred Rogers.
Uh, and that's where Greg and I started working, um, together on some pieces about the science of learning. So in the pr in the work that we're privileged to do for the Grayville Foundation, which Greg is the head of, um, a lot of our work has to do with figuring out what are we learning about learning itself.
and we talk to scientists, we talk to expert educators. We read academic articles from places right here in Pittsburgh, like Carnegie Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh, but also further afield from universities all over the country and the world. And what we realized over time in doing that was that when you talk to.
Learning scientists and when you talk to educators and you talk to parents, they're not talking about learning so scientifically, right? I think we expected lots of charts and graphs and numbers and and technical terminology, but instead they're asking questions like, how do we make sure kids feel safe?
How do we make sure kids feel that they belong to a community that cares about them? Uh, how do we make them feel? As Fred Rogers used to say that they are loved and capable of loving. And we like to say that, you know, in listening to these lectures and meeting these scientists and reading these papers, they started to sound to us like Scripps from Mr.
Rogers neighborhood. And that's really, uh, where this whole process, uh, began with that. Aha. .
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. .
Greg Behr: Yeah. And hi everyone. I'm Greg Bear. I'm the co-author with Ryan of this book entitled When You Wonder, you're Learning. I'm a Western Pennsylvania kid, as is Ryan, which is maybe all that you really ultimately need to know about us
Um, because like Fred Rogers we're, um, products of these western Pennsylvania Hills. I've been working in the field of education for two decades now. And also like Ryan, I'm a. . And so we bring sensibilities to this book as educators, as parents, and as Ryan said, have a chance in this book to represent Fred Rogers.
Not just as that loving, caring individual that so many of us got to experience on the other side of our television set, but as a remarkable learning scientist who was decades ahead of his time and who left for us some blueprints for learning that matter more to us, maybe more than they did during Fred's time.
Uh, and certainly 20 years after his passing maybe mean more to us in this moment right now than ever before.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. It, it's, it's interesting because as I was putting this podcast together, when I started it previously this year, I remember as I was getting the copy together for the website, I was going back and reading, um, a little book that I've.
Called The Wisdom of Mr. Rogers. I think, uh, I don't know if you've run across that book. It's on my shelf back here somewhere. I can't remember the, the, um, who, who edited that, but it's just quotes from Fred Rogers. And so I, I, I, I pulled from that and then, Then the movie came out, I can't remember when the movie came out.
I guess it was year before last, something like
Greg Behr: that. Yeah. Now which movie? Because there's Morgan Neville's amazing documentary and then there's the biopic starring Tom
Gordon Brewer: Hanks. Yes. I was thinking about the, the one with Tom Hanks and Yeah. And so I was just enthralled by it and um, yeah, so. It's, it's interesting how it, it brings, brings you guys into my life and just thinking about all of this and just so I know there's a lot of different places we could start with this, but what have you guys learned so far and what was the inspiration behind the book?
A little more about that. Yeah, I, I.
Ryan Rydzewski: Are what we really have come to see Fred in almost a new light. So Greg mentioned, you know, we grew up here in Western Pennsylvania. We grew up watching the neighborhood on television. We have that emotional connection to Fred that almost anybody who ever watched him shares right.
and I think, you know, you mentioned the movies with, with Tom Hanks, we tend to think of Fred as this nice guy in a sweater. Mm-hmm. , which he absolutely was. But what we try to do with this book is figure out, well, how did Fred do what he did? How did Fred make so many people feel that way? So many people from so many different walks of life, from so many different generations for so many decades in a row.
Is there a method to what Fred. , and if so, what do those blueprints look like and how can we, you know, 20 years after Fred himself passed away? Apply those lessons and follow Fred's blueprints in our schools and at home and in museums and libraries and all the places where we, uh, and where our young people learn.
So we really have come to see Fred, um, as a scientist, because he really was a scientist. As Greg will tell you, he studied with some of the top minds of his generation, and he put those lessons to work in Mr. Rogers. .
Greg Behr: Right. Well, and that's the thing, Gordon, we've, we have the privilege now with adult eyes and adult minds to look back at what it is that Fred did because so many of us met him with our little kid eyes, right?
Mm-hmm. and developed that emotional attachment often si oftentimes sit sitting alongside siblings or parents or others and as adults to look back at what it is that Fred did is an incredible. There are many interesting parts about Fred's story before the neighborhood even hits the air. One of the most amazing parts is this, Fred was studying at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary.
and it was during his time at the seminary that he decided he wanted to use that newfangled technology of television to minister to kids. Right. He saw what was attractive to kids and said, what if we made this good and constructive in a way that was helpful in their lives? Mm-hmm. , and it was his teachers at the seminary that said, well, Fred, if you're gonna do.
you better learn something about child development theory and practice, which ideally is something that any teacher, any youth worker, any librarian, anyone who's in the caring professions for kids hears at some point. Mm-hmm. , and this is where Fred ended up in a place called the Arsenal Family in Children's Center here in Pittsburgh.
It was a chance for him to sort of learn in an environment. And this environment, it turns out, was stack. with a 20th century Mount Rushmore of child development, psychologists, psychiatrists, and pediatricians. There was a remarkable happenstance of the people who happened to be here in Pittsburgh, the 1950s and sixties.
So there are folks like Benjamin Spock, the doctor whose book Baby and Child, child Care, one of the bestselling books of all time in American Publishing history. Probably everyone listening here either has a copy in their home. Their aunt or uncle or grandparents have a copy in their house. You can still walk into bookstores today and find that book on the shelves.
There are folks like Eric Erickson, pediatricians like Brazelton coming through, and most importantly as, uh, we've come to appreciate was the work of Margaret McFarland, who's a psychiatrist at the University of Pittsburgh, who became Fred's lifelong mentor and dear friend. So we mentioned this experience about being an arsenal because their Fred was among a world-class.
Of experts around what we were learning at the time about learning and about child development theory and practice, and he absorbed all of that. Fred was like a sponge, and you see he took what he absorbed in that setting. and he applied it to puppetry, to lyrics, to a wardrobe, to a physical set, to everything that he did.
It was deliberate and intentional and in so many ways, Fred was a scientist. And today, in, in the language of, of contemporary times, we would describe him as a learning scientist. A scientist who was studying how we learn. , but we didn't use that phrase 40 and 50 years ago. But that's exactly what Fred was and that's what today we can see as adults, looking back at the work that he did over the many decades mm-hmm.
that we saw his program on, that television set, and Gordon, he made it so easy, so seamless. Mm-hmm. that we didn't recognize it, but now we can go back and unpack it. And that's what Ryan and I try and do in this.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. I, I've got to, um, got to delve into that because I, I, you know, one of the things, um, as a therapist, I remember some of the courses I enjoyed the most were the human development courses and early Childhood Development courses.
Although as a therapist, I don't really work with kids, I, uh, as my daughter used to say when she was little, I sucked at playing Barbies. So , I didn't . Yeah, I didn't really, uh, I didn't really. Don't make the connection like Fred Rogers did. But, you know, one of the things that I remember about him, um, and I, I remember watching him, you know, as a little kid and you know, kind of growing up with him is that he slowed things down a lot.
Mm-hmm. . And that, that to me is something that we can really learn from. And that hit the, the whole pace of his, his programming and just the. Just the y you know, really during the time period, really some radical stuff. I mean, the, there's the whole, um, the whole scene with the, uh, I forget the actor's name who was played, the, uh, policeman who was black.
Brad Flock. Yeah. And, um, they, um, You know him, they're putting their feet in the pool together. Mm-hmm. was huge. Huge. It's
Ryan Rydzewski: so, it's sort of amazing, you know, when we went back to look at the neighborhood as adults, you know, we watched, I don't know how many episodes to put this book together, how much quiet space there is, uh, for not only for a television show, but for a children's television show.
You know, I used to be a teacher and I would, I hated to have blank space or unaccounted board time in my classroom. Cause I was worried about what was going to. Fred really trusted kids to stick with him, and in fact, we, there's a short, uh, aside in the book, uh, sort of analyzing the way Fred put his program together, and Fred only allowed two cuts per minute of footage on his program.
So that's roughly a cut every 30 seconds. in modern television, modern children's television, you see cuts every three to five seconds. So it was radically slower. There's a lot of quiet time. There are scenes in Mr. Rogers neighborhood of Fred literally sitting there and watching paint dry. He loved to give kids time to think.
He loved to give kids time to wonder. Um, he would give them something to think about and then he wouldn't press them for an answer right away. He would just let them sort of sit and marinate and wonder. and, um, I think that we're, to a certain degree missing that and, and media, both for children and adults today.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , uh, it's hyper fast. Um, I think that's also a reflection of social media as well. Fred trusted us. He knew that it was in those quiet moments that we would come to know ourselves, know our neighbors, and ultimately become, you know, the best of, of whoever we are. Right, right. And I think it's
Greg Behr: important for us to notice that Fred wasn't slow for the sake of being.
For him in so many ways. It was a tactical approach to building as he described it, atmosphere for learning. Mm-hmm. . And it wasn't just about creating that space where you could wonder, maybe even struggle and certainly notice things, but it was also about creating a space where you felt like you were safe, where your questions might be heard and respected, where you felt like you might belong.
There were a whole set of ingredients. , essentially Fred approached to developing that atmosphere for learning on his program and that pacing is just one of them.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. So one, one of the things I was thinking about as you were saying that Greg is, um, the, not only the slowing, the slowing down of things, but also the, um, the curiosity that he used with everything.
And one of the things that in doing this podcast and just in working with people in therapy, and particularly I do a lot of work with couples, is when you c when a person can move from being critical of the other to mo moving, to being curious of the other, everything changes. and that that, that, that is in my mind where kindness and compassion lips is where we can and, and I think, um, yeah.
Do you wanna say more about that? I mean, that was just kind of a thought that came to me as you were talking about those
Greg Behr: things. Well, I'll just say briefly and then Ryan, I'll turn to you because it makes me think of one of the chapters in our book, of which they're six and one of 'em focuses on communications.
And we really, uh, attend to what it was that Fred did and meant when he talked about deep listening and loving speech, right? Mm-hmm. . And according to your comments, deep listening and loving speech does not happen. Unless you're in an atmosphere where there is some stillness mm-hmm. , where you actually can hear process struggle with those thoughts.
And it's about, um, creating that atmosphere that allows for, for Ryan that deeper listening and loving speech. Yes. Yes.
Gordon Brewer: Ryan, did you heard a comment about that? Yeah. No, no. Go ahead. . No, I was gonna say, uh, I was just curious about your thoughts about that. I mean, from your perspective as well. Yeah. Um,
Ryan Rydzewski: it, it's interesting, I think Fred, Fred saw acceptance.
Mm-hmm. feeling accepted as sort of a precondition for growth. And, and you've probably seen this in your, in your therapy practice, Gordon, you know, Fred used to say, people don't change very much when all they have is a finger pointed in their face, right? Mm-hmm. people change. People only change in relation to somebody who loves them, and I.
What Fred was trying to do and what we've hoped, hopefully we've elaborated his methods in this book, was help engineer that feeling of acceptance and letting his viewers know that someone, even if it was just Fred, even if it was just one guy on a screen, accepted him exactly as they are right now. Now, that doesn't mean he told viewers that they're perfect or that everything they thought or said or did was was okay.
It only meant that he recognized. . Every human being is worthy of attention and every human being, despite all the flaws and strengths and hopes and fears that that person has, that person is worthy of the neighborhood that we all share. Mm-hmm. , I think Fred understood, and Fred was probably ahead of his time in understanding.
That in order for us to grow, in order for us to learn, in order for us to change, we need to feel that too. And in many ways, you know, Mr. Roger's neighborhood was a 40 year sermon on, on somebody out there accepts us. Somebody out there is telling us that we are okay just the way we are right now. Yes. .
Gordon Brewer: Yes.
Yeah. Um, there's a, I think there's a quote from St. Francis of Assisi is that, um, um, and not to throw too much of my own, I guess religious views into things, but is, um, he, he said, preach the gospel always and when necessary, use the word use words. So I'm paraphrasing the quote, but, uh, and when I think about Fred Wa Rogers and what he lived into with just, yeah, again, his background as a minister, um, really emulated what all of that should be about.
Ryan Rydzewski: That was, that quote was a favorite of Fred's. And you could see it. I mean, you could watch every episode of Mr. Roger's neighborhood and not know necessarily that he was a minister. And it wasn't that he was being deceptive. It wasn't that he was tricking us. I just think that the neighborhood was his distillation of, of what most world religions share, which is that sense that like we are here for one another as human beings.
And our job, you know, of Kurt vni used to say, we're here to help each other through this thing, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. and I, I see that philosophy at work in Mr. Rogers neighborhood as. .
Gordon Brewer: Awesome, awesome. So, I know, um, I, I want to be mindful of our time, but, um, could you all give us a quick kind of, uh, overview of the book?
Just kind of walk, walk us through kind of what's there.
Greg Behr: That's right. Well, right at the opening of the book is a Beautiful Ford by Mrs. Rogers, Fred's wife, Joan. and Joanne was a great champion for this book and a, a real supporter for the two of us, and, um, was instrumental together with colleagues who'd been part of Fred's career for decades in helping us to unpack the work that it is that Fred did.
So it begins with this beautiful forward by Joanne. And then you have six chapters that variously focus on a general theme, the first of which is curiosity, the second of which is creativity and continuous forward. More or less each chapter. , whether you're familiar with Mr. Rogers neighborhood or not, and if you are, it'll emotionally connect you because we ground you in the work that Fred did.
Oftentimes expressing that through an episode and in a a and a vi vignette that's sort of expressive of the concept for that chapter. And then what we try and do. Is connect what Fred did all of those years ago to things that were learning about learning itself. Ryan and I had a chance to review, I don't know if it's an opportunity or a burden, but to review all sorts of journal articles and other research pieces from Carnegie Mellon University, from m i t, from Stanford and beyond.
And then ideally we put that research in plain English in a way that connects what Fred. To what we're learning today about learning itself and the learning sciences demonstrate how Fred did that all of those years ago in incredibly practical ways and in that sense of practicality. in each chapter then are examples in classrooms, in libraries, in museums, in all sorts of learning settings that you could imagine in your community where people are essentially applying what we described as the Fred Method.
You know, taking what Fred did all of those years, years ago, doing it in a way commensurate with what. Learning scientists tell us we ought to be doing for kids and then ending each chapter with things that you and I can do. It's certainly not meant to be parenting or teaching for dummies, but what we have the privilege to do is curate examples from around the world where people are applying the Fred Method in in small little ways that any one of us can do.
and that's essentially what readers will find in the book. It's, it's written for parents, for new parents, for teachers, librarians, anyone who, who is in the care of children to make use of, of, as Joanne described. , the blueprints for learning that this book lays out.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, yes. I I'm really looking forward to delving into the book.
I, I, I, I probably confession here, should have read the book before I interviewed you guys, but, um, yes. Well now we peaked your interest, haven't you? Yes, you have. You have. It's, it's a, it's moved up in. In my reading list now. But, um, you know, the other thing, uh, that, um, that occurs to me as we're thinking about this, I think the most valuable thing that Mr.
Rogers taught was taught kids or, uh, and adults for that matter, the, the importance of emotional intelligence, of being able to know how to self-regulate and, and handle things. on an emotional level, but also an intellectual level at the same time.
Ryan Rydzewski: Yeah. I mean, there's that favorite or famous song of his, what do you do with the mad that you feel, you know?
Yes. Which is really about what you just mentioned. Mm-hmm. , I, I think Fred. , you're right. Fred really did teach kids the importance of self-control, of emotional intelligence. But I think Fred also went one step further, which is a step that we often forget as adults. So I, I think we all like to tell children, you know, that you, you need to keep your hands to yourself.
You need to keep your voice down or whatever it is that it was. But Fred always reminded children that they're big feelings. That they're big feelings that can be so overwhelming when you're at that. we're okay. It's okay to be scared. Mm-hmm. , it's okay to be, um, insecure. It's okay to be sad. It's okay to grieve.
Um, Fred always paired his sort of modeling of, of self-control and emotional intelligence with that reminder that the feelings you're having are humans. The feelings you're having are okay. There are caring adults around you who will help you work through them, and it's how you deal with them. That's what's I.
Yes. Well,
Greg Behr: and Ryan, you use, you just essentially used the word humanity and Ryan, isn't that at the core of Fred Roger's work a deep and profound respect for humanity beginning in the earliest of years, and that all of us from our lifetimes as young children to. Ideally, um, wisened adults, right? That we have layers of social, emotional and academic growth.
And he was way ahead of his time in, in, in respecting and understanding the integration of those in the, in the nuances and layers of every single human being. And he respected childhood to know that that's a profound start in that lifelong. .
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. . Yes. Yes. And I think he, the, the other thing that he, I think he changed, um, was.
Was moving, moving childhood. You said humanity of really just seeing, seeing children as other humans, not just as these things that are over that we. , you know, that, uh, I'm trying to think the words to put to that, but you know, I know there was a shift where children were kind of seen as property or kind of, kind of seen as this something that adults owned and that, um, they were of no value with their insight or whatever they might provide until they reached a certain age.
And, um, . Yeah. And so I think what, what, well,
Greg Behr: and to para, to paraphrase Fred, I won't get this quotation right. Mm-hmm. , I mean, he essentially said he respected childhood and knew and appreciated how distinct it is from other phases of our life. But to your point, Gordon, he, he essentially said, you know, kids aren't just vessels that you open up their head and pour things into it.
Mm-hmm. , they come with those layers of social and emotional and cognitive growth. Mm-hmm. and we grownups do best by tending to those continuously. . Um, and together.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. Well, this is, this is fascinating stuff and I, I wish we had had more time to, to. Delve into this more. Now I, hopefully I can get you guys back on again so we can talk some more about this because I think this hits at the core of where we can live into more kindness and compassion, particularly through our educational systems and how we, how we, how we communicate with kids, and how we help them help them.
you know, throughout their lifetime. So, um, well tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they want to, and, um, if they wanna learn more from you.
Ryan Rydzewski: Sure. So they can visit our website@whenyouwonder.org. Uh, we post some updates there from time to time. They can also sign up for our newsletter, which, uh, has events and some musings about Fred and some interesting links to Fred, like things mm-hmm.
Um, and you can also reach out to us, to us directly. Uh, we're available at when you wonder. gmail.com. We'd love to hear from readers. We'd love to hear from prospective readers. Mm-hmm. , uh, we'd love to hear from fans of Fred. Probably the most satisfying and and fun part of getting out on the road, whether virtually or in person to talk about this book, is to hear about how much Fred still means to so many people, uh, and what a guiding force he is in so many people's lives, uh, whether they think about him in that way or not.
A lot of times when we, we talk about that book, Come to us and say, Hey, you know, I've been doing this thing in my classroom and I think this is really Fred. Like, and that's right. And we started to curate more and more of those examples, um, which folks can find, uh, when they sign up for our newsletter.
Awesome.
Greg Behr: Awesome. And Gordon, you can find our book, you know, ask at the local library, ask at your local bookstore, wherever it is that you find books, uh, whether that's ordering online or walking down to the neighborhood shop. Um, you can find when you wonder
Gordon Brewer: you. . Awesome. Awesome. And we'll have links here in the show notes and the show summary for folks to, to, to find things easily again, the book is When You Wonder, you're Learning.
Mr. Rogers Enduring Lessons for Raising Creative, curious, and Caring Kids. Ryan and and Greg, thank you so much for being with me today.
Ryan Rydzewski: Thanks for having us. It's been a pleasure.
Greg Behr: Ah, thanks and thanks for being such a kind neighbor. Thanks.

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Help Going Through a Process

Loves and Acceptance Through Spiritual Beliefs

Grace and Self-Care Navigating through Divorce

Advice for helping Someone Going Through Divorce

Advice on Healing

Final Message from Teresa

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Introducing Billy and Caroline

Make Space for Community

Why do we need kindness and compassion

Ways to practice kindness and compassion

Give room for kindness and compassion

Deeper awareness by practicing kindness and compassion

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Meet Gregg Behr & Ryan Rydzewski

WhenYouWonder.org

The Real Mr. Rogers

When You Wonder, You’re Learning

Creating a Safe and Welcoming Space

Conclusion

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