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Teresa Williams | Finding Kindness and Compassion In The Midst Of Broken Relationships | K&C 22

Love and compassion in divorce is an often misunderstood concept. Divorce is often seen as a negative thing, and there is a stigma attached to it that can be hard to overcome.  In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with Teresa Williams, MA, MS, LPC about how love and compassion can be found even in the midst of a divorce. 

When Teresa Williams, a licensed professional counselor in Huntsville, Alabama, went through her own divorce, she experienced the pain and loneliness that comes with it. She felt abandoned by family, friends, and even her church. This experience led her to start the Confident and Courageous Woman website, a coaching program designed to help women going through divorce. 

Meet Teresa Williams

“With compassion and understanding, I serve individuals, families, and groups.  Through offering practical help, I’ve watched them become hopeful as they maneuvered life in new circumstances.  I am honored to sit with people in a variety of crises, life stages, relationship struggles, and painful situations.  I am thankful to be a practical and hopeful voice.

My background includes a Bachelor’s degree in Human Resource Management, a Master of Arts Degree in Human Services Counseling from Liberty University, and a Master of Science in Counseling from Faulkner University. I am a Licensed Professional Counselor in Alabama. My counseling experience includes psychological assessments, working with adults, divorce recovery, women’s issues, and marital difficulties. I am a Prepare/Enrich pre-marital and marriage facilitator and a Board-Certified Life Coach. I am trained in Levels 1, 2 & 3 of Gottman Method Couples Therapy and lead seminars as a Gottman Leader of The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work couples program.  I am a speaker for business and women’s conferences/events

I love traveling with my husband, spending time reading, listening to music, and playing with our dog, Ollie.”

Help Going Through a Process 

As a therapist, Teresa understands the stages of the grief process. She said expressed you think you know what to expect “until you actually walk that path, and you start experiencing the grief on multiple levels. And a lot of times people don’t know what to do.” People don’t know what to say. They take sides or they don’t take sides and they just disappear. And it’s a very chaotic time, especially in the beginning. So being able to find the support and the kindness and compassion and what that looks like can help a lot of people. People don’t know how to do that because they haven’t walked through it. Or there is judgment. There’s so much stigma. You put the word divorce between, in front of, or behind any other word, and it’s always negative. And it shouldn’t be that way. “What I have found also is being able to help others understand how to walk alongside someone who is experiencing this devastating life change.”

Loves and Acceptance Through Spiritual Beliefs 

Teresa Williams wants people to know “If we look at scripture, the only people that Jesus really condemned were the Sadducees and the Pharisees. And everyone else, He had compassion for. And not that he overlooks sin, but he didn’t condemn them. He did criticize, he showed love and support. People might think “Am I committing a sin? Is God ever going to forgive me? Can I ever remarry?” Teresa continues, “I’m not a theologian, but I do know what scripture says about Jesus and how he interacted with people, and he loved them, and he accepted them where they were. And regardless of whether you view it as a sin or a survival, God still loves you, and God still accepts you. And you can move on.” Sometimes we forget that Jesus extends grace and mercy to everyone. We want that same grace and mercy from Jesus, and we need to extend that to others around us, regardless of what they’re walking through. 

Grace and Self-Care Navigating through Divorce

For a lot of people, the hardest person to give grace to is herself. Especially at the beginning. There’s so much chaos. Their world has just fallen apart, and they don’t know what to do. They don’t know where to turn to. Everything around them just got shattered. There’s a lot of fear. It’s hard to not feel overwhelmed. So, taking one step at a time and self-care can be forgotten. One of the hardest things for women, just in general is asking for help.  It’s hard to say, “I need help with (fill in the blank).” There’s so much judgment and criticism around divorce, especially in the church. And so, a woman is fearful to even reach out even to friends and family.

Advice for helping Someone Going Through Divorce

Loneliness is a big issue. People do not know how to come alongside. They don’t know what to say or how to help this person. That’s hard for a lot of individuals. How other people can come alongside these individuals? Spiritually, pray for them. And maybe get them involved, such as going with them to a Bible study or to a weekly meeting that the churches have. If they’ve been ostracized by their church and they feel and they don’t feel comfortable anymore going to the church, how about saying, “Hey, how about coming with me on Sunday morning?” This time is hard because this person is grieving. There are a lot of tears. Teresa remembers thinking “The tears are never going to end, and the pain is never going to stop.” A big support would be if a person can just come alongside and let that person talk without offering advice. Let them cry without judgment. Don’t take sides, just be there for that person. Just being there, just being present. 

Other things that we can do alongside is for the physical side. Do something to relieve the stress on that person. Offer to take them to dinner or lunch. Come over and cook dinner for them. Take them to a concert. Go on an activity. Teresa remembers “When I went through it my house was a disaster because I was working all kinds of crazy hours at the time. And, having a house that’s messy just adds one more burden to you. And I had a good friend who just came over and allowed me to cry. And she vacuumed my floor. She washed my dishes. It was such a comfort to me. It meant so much to me.”  Do something for her so she can take care of herself. Let that woman take a hot bubble bath or just sit down and catch up on laundry. Do the things that show compassion and kindness to her in her time of need.  

Advice on Healing

First, take your time and take your time and allow yourself to agree with all the emotions associated with the shock of it, the anger, and the disbelief. There will be times of bargaining and all the stages of grief. Allow yourself those emotions, don’t stuff them. Get a good friend that’s going to come alongside you and be there and encourage you. This friend is one that doesn’t offer advice but just radiates encouragement and love. And then go find a therapist. Go do your own work. Find the things that you need to take care of yourself. It’s a process. It’s not a one-and-done thing. It doesn’t mean that when the ink is dry on the divorce decree that all of a sudden life’s going to go back to some type of normal and you’re going to be okay. It doesn’t work like that. Remember, it’s a process. 

There will be new stages and relearning. It is learning how to deal with the triggers. The sight smells, the taste that triggers you to your past, and learning how to cope with them and not allow them to take you down and derail you. Also understanding what the new norm is. Because there is a lot of adjustments. Maybe you didn’t get the house in the divorce, or maybe you have to move. And then the custody situation if there’s kids involved. Now you’re used to having your kids all the time around you. Suddenly they have to go over to dad’s house, for the weekend or every other week. That’s a major adjustment. During this time it is so vital not to isolate yourself. It would be natural, depending on the circumstances, that you don’t want to talk to people. You don’t want to put yourself out there.  You don’t want to have to explain what happened for the hundredth time. Stay active and being a part of the community and having that support is really vital to your emotional health. 

Final Message from Teresa

“For the person that is walking through [divorce] I just want to encourage them. If you’re willing to do the work, if you’re willing to keep moving forward, you will be okay. I can promise you that. “…What’s really important, is to know that there’s hope in healing beyond divorce, regardless of your circumstances.” 

Teresa has free resources on her web page. Go to Confident and Courageous Woman for five tips for dealing with the Stress of Divorce. They can reach out Teresa through that website. She has coaching programs and she is getting ready to launch (soon) a membership program. in membership.

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Gordon Brewer: Record. Okay, Go ahead. Hello
Teresa Williams: everyone. Welcome to this episode of Kindness and Compassion Podcast. I am so excited to be here with my friend Gordon. I'm Therea Williams, licensed professional counselor in Huntsville,
Gordon Brewer: Alabama. Perfect.
Hello everyone and welcome again to the Kindness and Compassion Podcast and I'm really looking forward to you to getting getting to hear from my guest today there, Williams. Welcome there. Thank you, Gordon. Glad to be here. Yes. And there I met and I actually met through my other podcast, the Practice of Therapy podcast, and I knew from our conversation that we really wanted to I wanted to get her on this podcast because I think she is Doing some work just with this whole intersection between spirituality and what it's like for people that are going through divorce, particularly women and that sort of thing.
So therea be tell folks about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed.
Teresa Williams: Okay like I said before, I'm a licensed professional counselor and in my practice I see individual, I do married to family and I saw a need to be able to help women who, one, either walking through divorce or been divorced and maybe don't know what to do and stuck.
And I know those feelings personally because I have walked that journey. I was married for a hundred years. Not really, but it felt like it uhhuh and had children and had a spouse who committed adultery and it was a very public and nasty divorce. And I felt alone and abandoned, not by only family and friends, but also my church.
And so my hardest desire, Is to be able to help other women that, again, who are either currently walking through a divorce or been divorced for a while and don't have the support and the encouragement they need. . So I felt like the Lord was calling me. So I started a website separate from my.
Therapy practice called the competent and courageous woman. . And it is a coaching program just for that to be able to come along and work alongside other women experiencing divorce.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think it's a struggle. I know both of us are from the south, We talked about that before and I think just culturally, there's I think some misplaced stigmas around divorce and around people that are going through kind, the end of a marriage and there's a whole grieving process that occurs with that.
I know we talked about that previously, but I. In your work? What, I guess what I'm interested in, or I think maybe folks would be interested in, is it sounds like you went through a process of changing your mind about some things, just not only on the spiritual side of things, but just for you personally, and of course being a therapist to, you've got all the information, but when you experience it personally, it's a different thing.
So you wanna say something about all those things? Yeah,
Teresa Williams: it is. And like you say, being a therapist, I know all the grief stages and I know where you think you know what to expect until you actually walk that path and you start experience the grief on multiple levels. And a lot of times people don't know what to do.
They don't know what to say and they take. Or they don't take sides and they just disappear. And it's a very chaotic time, especially in the beginning. So being able to find the support and the kindness and compassion and what that looks like, a lot of people. Don't know how to do that because a either one, they haven't walked through it.
Or two from a judgmental sign like we talked about. There's so much stigma. You put the word divorce between, in front of or behind any other word, and it's always negative. And it shouldn't be that way. , what I have found also is being able to help others understand how to walk alongside someone who is experiencing this devastating life change.
.
Gordon Brewer: . Yes. Yeah. And I know one of the things I know just in my own work I'm also a marriage family therapist, and I think one of the struggles that people have as well is. Is just feeling like they are, for lack of a better term committing a sin by going through with a divorce and that sort of thing.
And so in your work with people around that, how do you help them navigate that and just really because that gets into our values and our beliefs and our faith and all of that sort of thing. How do you help people kinda walk through. Dilemma, so to speak.
Teresa Williams: If we look at scripture, the only people that Jesus really condemned were the Sadducees and the Pharisees.
And everyone else. He had compassion for right. And not that he overlooks sin. , but he didn't condemn them. , he did criticize, he showed love and support. And, they're so mis what I wanna say, interpretations of scripture. And regardless of what side of the fence you're on, whether you are the one that's wanting the divorce and.
the marriage is no longer working for whatever reason. Abuse. , whatever. And you feel like that you need to get out or your spouse is divorcing you and you're looking, you're going. Wait a minute. Am I committing a sin? Is God ever gonna forgive me? Can I ever remarried? And depending upon what orientation spiritually you stand on, one of the things that I don't try to get into mud.
I'm not a colo, but I do know what scripture says about Jesus and how he interacted with people and he loved them, and he accepted them where they were. . And regardless whether you view it as a sin or a survival, God still loves you, God still accepts you. And you can move on.
Gordon Brewer: And I think the other thing that's helpful to maybe understand is that the when the scriptures were written, and again, I'm not. I don't want to, I don't want to force my views on anyone else, but one of the things that I think is important to remember is that when the scriptures were written, it was in a totally different culture in totally different time.
Absolutely. And that and that you have to take that into context. Back in, back during those times, 2000 years ago, Women were just basically seen as property and not to be treated as any different than, , your animals or anything else. And I think one of the things again that Jesus that came through with that, with Jesus is that he did treat it with compassion.
And I think a lot of what was said in the New Testament about divorce, if you look at it through the lens of compassion, of really check making sure. That people are taken care of, that somebody's not left destitute, somebody's not left on the street to fend for themselves. That's a different way of looking at it because I think it's a, yeah, totally different culture and time.
Teresa Williams: Absolutely. And sometimes we forget that Jesus extends grace and mercy to everyone. Yes. And that we want that same grace and mercy from Jesus, and we need to extend that to others around us, regardless of what they're walking through.
Gordon Brewer: And I think it, I think the other thing too Is that's where self care comes into play.
And I think one of the, I think for a lot of people, the hardest person to give grace to is herself. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Theresa, with your work with folks that are of women in particular that are going through a this thing of divorce, what. What sort of themes do you see that you would, that you tend to try to help them navigate through?
Teresa Williams: I think there's, especially at the beginning, there's so much chaos. Their world has just fallen apart and they don't know what to do. They don't know where to turn to. Everything around them just got chattered. . And there's a lot of fear and, being able, just like you talk about, to say, Okay, don't get overwhelmed.
Let's take one step at a time. , let's do this self care. And I think one of the hardest things for women, just in general is asking for help is being able to reach out and say, I need, and fill in that blank. . A lot of times, like we talked about, there's so much judgment and criticism around divorce, especially in the church.
And so a woman is fearful to even reach out. And sometimes, like I said before, that even includes friends and family.
Gordon Brewer: . Yeah. And one of the, one of the things just in mental health, I think one of the things that just is Really at the root of a lot of mental health issues is this sense of being lonely or being alone.
And I think that when we can help people get connected and really kinda reassure them that there are other people out there that are being, that are willing to be with them on the journey, that's where a lot of healing can.
Teresa Williams: Absolutely. And you know when a lot of people don't know how to come alongside, they don't.
Because of before one, they have maybe never walked through it themselves or even had a friend or family member walk through it and they don't know what to do. They don't know what to say or how to help this person because if you look at them, they're a mess. . , and so that's part of the problem as.
Right,
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think that, if anybody is going through a divorce or going through a situation where they are, yeah, you. Maybe not feeling good about themselves or feeling kinda hopeless about their situation. That you, just to echo what you said is being able to reach out to the right people around that and being able to get that support.
I think the other thing too, that we kinda hinted at is that, There's a lot of grief involved in this and being able to allow someone to go through the grieving process and mourn, mourn what is happening.
Teresa Williams: Yeah. And that's hard for a lot of individuals. . And so if I could just speak for a second or two of how other people can come alongside these individuals.
Spiritually, if you know the. Pray for them, obviously. , and maybe get them involved offer for, to a Bible study or to a weekly meeting that the churches having. Or if they've been ostracized by their church and they feel, they don't feel comfortable anymore going to the church.
How about offering to say, Hey, how about coming with me on Sunday morning? And just come and worship with. and emotionally, it's really hard because this person is grieving. There's a lot of tears. In fact, I remember myself thinking the tears are never going to end.
, the pain is never gonna stop and. If a person can just come alongside and let that person talk without offering advice, and let them cry and no judgment. And the other side is don't take sides, just be there for that person.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. And I think it's a our tendency as human beings is when we see someone else in pain is that we want to fix it for them and somehow or another take the pain.
But the truth of the matter is that the pain is there. And I think you're exactly right. It's just that journey alongside and being with there's a, I think there's a lot to be said for. What I like to refer to as the ministry of presence, of being just present with people and being able to just let them know that they're not alone in this.
That doesn't necessarily take the pain away, but it does provide a sense of comfort to some degree. And yeah. Yeah.
Teresa Williams: I really like that. Just being there, just being present. Other things that we can do alongside is for the physical side. , is maybe doing something to relieve stress on that person, like just being a friend, offering to take them to dinner or lunch and or coming over and cooking dinner for them.
, how about, taking 'em to a concert, offering them to go on activities or, I remember. When I went through it my house was a disaster because I was working all kinds of crazy hours at the time. And, having a house that's messy just adds one more burden to you. And I had a good friend who just came over and allowed me to cry.
And she vacuumed my floor. , she washed my dishes and it was such a comfort to me. , it meant so much to me. Whatever that is, that if someone is going through divorce and has small kids, they don't get a break most of the time. Yeah. Let the kids out for ice cream. Yeah. Let that woman take a hot bubble bath or just sit down and catch up on laundry.
. So those are things that we can show compassion and kind. To others.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, I love that. So is in your work as a therapist and just working with people that are going through these kinds of struggles with the, with a divorce or ending of a relationship and that sort of thing. What do you see as the tasks maybe that's not a great word, but what do you see as, what is the work of recovering from situations like this?
Teresa Williams: First of all is take your time and take your time and allow yourself to agree all the emotions associated with, the shock of it and the anger, the, the disbel belief. The bargaining, all the stages of grief. And allow yourself those emotions, don't stuff them. , get you a good friend that's going to come alongside you and be there and encourage you.
That doesn't offer advice, but just encouragement and love. And then go find a therapist. Go do your own work. I did that myself and. Find the things that you need to take care of you. , because it's a process. It's not a one and done thing. It doesn't mean that when the ink is dry on the divorce decree that all of a sudden life's gonna go back to some type of normal and you're gonna be okay.
, it doesn't work like that. I have a, it's a process.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of layers to it, and everybody's situation is a little different, but I think one of the things is, you're right, is finding a professional to talk to about it. Because as I think about it, there's not only.
The grief of it, but there might be some trauma associated with it, and a person being able to find, finding out about secrets that have been kept and all of that sort of thing. Dealing with that. The redefining of self, particularly for people that have been married for a while.
They define themselves in the context of a relationship. And so in, in many ways, you're having to redefine who you are as a person and all of that sort of thing. And so that, like you said, that's a process. And I think I remember a friend of mine who's also a therapist was talking about grief in terms of it's not something you get.
But it's something you get through and I think a lot of times to be able to just recognize that it's not necessarily something you're gonna get over and it's just gonna be done. But you're getting through it and it will crop up again. That's the nature of grief.
Teresa Williams: It is and learning how to deal with the triggers.
The sight smells, the taste that trigger you to your past and learning how to cope with them and not allowing them to take you down and derail you. And right. Also understanding what the new norm is. Because there is a lot of adjustments. Maybe you didn't get the house in the divorce, Maybe you have to move.
And then the custody situation with, if there's kids involved, now you're used to having your kids all the time around you, and now they have to go over to dad's house, for the weekend or every other week. That's a major adjustment. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: And I think that's yeah. And so I think, again, going full circle back to finding someone that can walk alongside you in that journey is gonna be one of the most helpful things that you, that anyone can do with that.
Absolutely. Yeah. And then finding a safe community to be in with all of that. And we're talking about church, but there are other different communities that people can be involved in to where they can get that support. And so really getting community and support.
Teresa Williams: Yeah, absolutely. That is so vital and not to isolate yourself, because a lot of times, depending on the circumstances, you don't wanna talk to people, you don't wanna put yourself out there, You don't wanna have to explain what happened for the Hunt or Tom and have somebody either a, not know what to say, or when they do say something, it's not helpful.
. And Active and staying, aware of being involved in the community and having that support is really vital to your emotional
Gordon Brewer: health. Yes. Therea I, I wanna be respectful of your time, but what are some other parting thoughts that maybe you have just around this topic and just thinking about how people can live into kindness and compassion around divorce, particularly if for folks that maybe find it a little bit.
Teresa Williams: Is, first of all, I would say to those who find it troubling, we don't live with that couple, We don't know what has gone on in that marriage. , we weren't there, so we don't really have a right to judge. , we don't have a right to criticize because we don't know, we didn't live with them and vice versa.
If we're married, people don't live with us, hopefully. And so they don't know what goes on behind closed doors. . And having that compassion and kindness around it for that person who's walking that path is so vital. . And for the person that is walking through it I just wanna encourage them.
You will get. , if you're willing to do the work, if you're willing to keep moving forward, you will be okay. , I can promise you that. , and that's what's really important, is to know that there's hope in healing beyond divorce, regardless of your circumstances.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. That's great.
That's great. Theresa, tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they have questions or want to connect with.
Teresa Williams: I have a free handout. If they wanna go to Confident and courageous woman.com. , there is a free handout, It's five tips for dealing with the Stress of Divorce.
They can reach out to me through that website at Teresa at Confident and Courageous Woman and I have coaching programs and we're getting ready to launch hopefully soon in membership. So they can reach out and I would be glad to talk with
Gordon Brewer: them. Awesome. And we'll have links here in the show notes and the show summary for all of this.
Teresa, it's good to reconnect again and hope you as we're recording this, we're moving full force into the holiday season. So I hope you have a great holidays and Thank you. You too. And all of that kinda fun stuff. Alrighty.
Teresa Williams: Thank
Gordon Brewer: you. It's been a pleasure. Yes, mine too.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Caroline Vogel & Billy Daniel | Living Into Self Kindness and Compassion | K&C 21

In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with The Rev. Caroline Vogel and The Rev. Dr. Billy Daniel about how we can practice kindness and compassion by reaching out to those around us, offering a helping hand, and showing understanding and empathy. They also talk about ways to build bridges between different communities, cultures, and beliefs by listening to each other and trying to understand one another’s perspectives.  One of the most important practices to foster kindness and compassion is self-compassion. Self-compassion is the practice of being kind to oneself and recognizing that we all make mistakes and have flaws. It is important to recognize that we all have our own unique set of experiences and that we can learn from our mistakes.

Introducing Billy and Caroline

I’m so glad for you to get to know Caroline Vogel and Billy Daniel. They are friends of mine from my work in the Episcopal Church. Both Caroline and Billy are Episcopal priests serving in Knoxville, Tennessee at Church of the Ascension.

The Rev. Dr. Billy Daniel is a priest, poet, theologian and the rector at Church of the Ascension and author of Christ in the Liturgy and Inhabited By Grace; The Incarnate Way of Love.  Billy works with congregations and individuals to help deepen their spiritual lives.  He has a podcast, Fr. Billy Daniel which features sermons, homilies and spiritual reflections.

The Rev. Caroline Vogel serves as The Director for Spiritus Knox a center for spiritual learning and practice in Knoxville, Tennessee. Spiritus Knox is a gathering place for anyone and everyone who is looking for some sacred space to find some ease and spiritual wellness and connect with others seeking to do the same. We offer weekly gatherings on Sunday Evenings in addition to retreats throughout the year. On occasion we have the good fortune to host authors to share about their books, passion and connect with us who seek to explore with them. You can learn more about Spiritus Knox at our website: www.spiritusknox.com. Caroline also has a podcast, Mindful Christians; living embodied faith.

Make Space for Community

Caroline said that what we’re trying to do in Ascension is really make space for people to reimagine what the church is and how they can be part of it. How they can connect to it so that they experience a new way of living out their spiritual life and connecting with God. They are fond of saying “Ascension as a seminary for the city, which is really a fancy way of saying that we are a space that cultivates a certain kind of soil that enriches the community and the lives of those around us.”

Why do we need kindness and compassion

Gordon has been thinking about the need for kindness and compassion for a while. “One of the things that I really noticed in my work as a therapist is that how much people were hurt.” He notices just how isolated people are from each other. “How do we live into more kindness and compassion, not only with each other, but with ourselves because we, we have a relationship to ourselves first and then to the world.”

Gordon has been working with people in the therapy office and also serving in the church. He works with people that have been through trauma. People who have been through some horrific things in their lives. He works to help people find much greater sense of contentment and peace in their lives by the different ways they can practice kindness and compassion.

Ways to practice kindness and compassion

How do you help people move past the polarization in our society and embrace kindness and compassion? The practices are very simple but complicated at the same time. People need to find something that works for them.
One way to practice more kindness and compassion is mindfulness. Just being self-aware. Being aware of what is going on for you internally as well. Mindfulness is being able to think about what you’re thinking about. Being aware of that and how it’s affecting you physically and emotionally and spiritually.

Another way is the practices of gratitude are really looking at what you have rather than what you don’t have. Be aware of what you have and be grateful.
As simple as this sound is, doing simple acts of kindness out in the world increases our capacity to experience kindness and compassion. And so that just kind of behavior perpetuates itself. Living into kindness and compassion is really getting curious about others. Being kind can get us unstuck from the loop of criticism and defensiveness. Change that up. Instead of becoming defensive when we’re faced with something that maybe we don’t agree with or faced with criticism of some sort, is to get curious about what is going on with that other person in their life. Ask questions and just get curious with the other person.

Give room for kindness and compassion

We all have a filter. When we become more aware of our filter it gives us room to be able to see things from another perspective. Gordon has an optical illusion in his office that can look like a young woman or an old woman, depending on how you look at it. Is it an old woman or is it a young woman? And the truth of the matter is it’s not either or it’s both. One of the things about leaning into kindness and compassion is being willing to embrace both and rather than the either or. This opens us up to empathy, allowing room for kindness and compassion. When you understand what is going on in the background for someone, then there is no room for the spirit of judgment.

Deeper awareness by practicing kindness and compassion

No matter how much they pour their heart open to us, we do not know exactly what they are going though. It’s their story. When they share it with us, and we receive it as they offer it with a nonjudgmental and curious posture it enables us to receive them as they are. Which again opens us to a deeper awareness of who they are. We create a kind of space together. We all become more fully alive in the process. And, and that’s the whole beauty of the spirit of generosity, this curiosity and receiving. Practice listening. Practice being curious the whole time. Practice holding them gently. That is the essence of kindness and compassion.

Show notes by James Marland, CCS

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Caroline: And Compassion With a guest. With a guest. Gordon Brewer. So Gordon, will you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Gordon Brewer: Well, sure. Thanks for, thanks for having me. Yes. I'm a, um, I'm a deacon in the Episcopal Church and so, uh, uh, really a deacons ministry is really more in the world than anything else. But I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in private practice in Kingsport t.
and I work with both, uh, couples and individuals on just, uh, any array of, of, you know, problems that people might have. And, um, yeah. And then the other thing that I do that I think is a lot of fun is I also have a podcast called The Kindness and Compassion. Podcasts where really, um, it's a podcast about ending the, kind of the division and polarization in the world and really looking at how we can look at the intersection of psychology, religion, spirituality, and how we can live into more kindness and compassion in our lives.
Wow, that's great.
Caroline: That's wonderful.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. Okay, so
Billy: let's see.
Gordon Brewer: It's not picking up quite as well as I hoped for, but
Billy: like Sarah,
Gordon Brewer: the sign there? No, but
Caroline: she's got crispy her donuts.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. First name and last name again. Billy Daniel. Billy Daniel. I wanted to say Bob. I don't know why. Billy. Bob. Billy Bob? Mm-hmm.
Okay. All right, here we go. Hello folks, and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so glad for you to get to know today. Caroline Vogel and bought Billy.
Caroline: Daniel .
Gordon Brewer: I had Billy Bob in my
Caroline: head. Sorry I messed you up. That's
Gordon Brewer: good. All right, we'll start over. Okay. My fault. My fault. It's okay,
Well, hello folks and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so glad for you to get to know Caroline Vogel and Billy Daniel, who are friends of mine from my work in the Episcopal Church. But welcome Caroline and.
Caroline: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for, thanks for having us. We're excited to be on your podcast.
Gordon Brewer: Yes.
And as I start with everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit about yourself and how you've. Landed where you've landed. Mm.
Billy: You should go first.
Caroline: Okay. So, so I'm Caroline and I'm an Episcopal priest serving in Knoxville, Tennessee at Church of the Ascension. Billy and I actually serve there together.
Um, I serve as the associate priest for, um, adult formation and we started a new center called, uh, spirit Two Snacks, which is a center for spiritual learning and. Um, we're offering a variety of things, including retreats and, uh, teaching people about different spiritual tools. And one Sunday night we get together and breathe together.
Mm-hmm. . Um, we have a Celtic service and a, um, a book study each month. So we're just doing a, a lot of different kinds of things to help people experience community. Around, uh, their spiritual lives. Mm-hmm. , um, maybe especially those that, uh, Sunday morning's not quite working for them anymore or not working so well.
Um, yeah,
Gordon Brewer: yeah, yeah.
Billy: So, yeah. So I'm Billy Daniel. I'm the, uh, rector at Church of the Ascension in Knoxville, Tennessee. I've been here for all of eight. And I am an Episcopal priest and, and grateful to serve here in Ascension and, and to be a part of a lot of the stuff that we are doing. And so, as Caroline mentioned, she's the director of Spirit two Snots, which is a new initiative, uh, that we started in March, maybe June, June.
June. It was June. June. And, and there. What we're trying to do in Ascension is really make space for people to, um, reimagine what the church is and, and how they can be part of it and connected to it so that they experience. Um, a new way of living out their spiritual life and connecting with God. And, and part of that's through initiatives like Spirit Two, snots Others is something I'm fond of saying is, um, Ascension as a seminary for the city, which is really a, um, a fancy way of saying that we are a space that cultivates.
Um, a certain kind of soil that enriches the community, the lives of those around us, so that we foster growth all over. And, and so I'm grateful to be there and it's, it's good work that we're doing. And so thanks for having us here on the podcast.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, it's really needed work and just bringing, getting people to think about their spiritual lives in maybe a much different way.
Yeah. That's it. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Okay. Is that good to, just for the intro? Yeah. That's good. Mm-hmm. . Okay.
Caroline: Okay. So now we'll do the body.
Gordon Brewer: Okay. Okay.
Billy: So we'll, um, how do we wanna start? We gonna start it as a
Caroline: Why don't, Hmm.
Why don't we, why don't we start by talking, although, how would that work for your podcast if we're talking about, well, spiritual practices of kindness and compassion?
Gordon Brewer: Yeah, we can. Well, we can. You know what we can do? I'm not sure exactly. My mine is very conversational. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so I think it'll work in that.
Okay,
Billy: fabulous. So maybe we do, um, a separate little piece. Mm-hmm. where we talk about where we do, we kind of already do that.
Caroline: We kindness and compassion.
Billy: Yeah. I dunno what you're. I'm just thinking, do we need a separate set of, well,
Caroline: why don't we do the, why don't we just have the conversation and I think we'll know what we need after we have the conversation.
Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. . Great. Yeah.
Caroline: So I'm so excited to have this conversation today about kindness and compassion. Mm-hmm. and, um, Gordon, let's, let's start with you. Yes. Um, since you have a whole podcast on kindness and compassion, how did you get interested? Um, what, why, why a podcast on kindness and compassion.
Gordon Brewer: Well, it's a, it, it's something that I've been thinking about for, for some time, but I think as much as anything, I think, um, hopefully we can, we can safely say here, post Covid, one of the things that I really noticed in my work as a therapist is that how much people were hurt.
Um, just around being isolated from each other. But then on top of that, we had a whole, this whole phenomenon of the, the George Floyd murder and mm-hmm. and all of the polarization that we're seeing in our country and just around, around the world. And one of the things that I wanted to do was just have conversations with folks around.
How do we live into more kindness and compassion, not only with each other, but with ourselves because we, we have a relationship to ourselves first and then to the world, and so really just learning from other people how they're living into that. And with that comes an intersection I think for most people into the, into the realm of spirituality.
Kind of my purview has been working with people in therapy and psychology and that sort of thing. I wear two hats and then I'm a clergy person in the church, but also, um, You know, work with people that have been through trauma, been through some horrific things in their lives, and really just helping people find much greater sense of contentment and peace in their lives by the different ways they can practice kindness and compassion.
Billy: So you, you mentioned practice, so that's something we are pretty keen on. Mm-hmm. , um, especially in talking about on, on our own podcast, becoming fully alive and. What are the practices? Like what, what maybe what are the practices that you notice? That you are making accessible to people that you work with mm-hmm.
that really is helping them to foster that kindness and compassion and move past the polarization in, in their own
Gordon Brewer: lives. Right. Right. That's a great question. And the thing about it is, is that, So I like to think about the practices is that they are, um, very simple but complicated at times. , I mean, there's just a lot of different avenues and I think that people, when they are, um, when they're really seeking it, um, they have to find something that works for them.
But the things that come to mind, and these are familiar terms that I think a lot of people are hearing. One is mindfulness just being. Self aware and aware of what is going on for you internally, um, of being able. Mindfulness is really, I, I think of it as being able to think about what you're thinking about.
Mm-hmm. and being aware of that and how it's affecting you physically and emotionally and spiritually and that sort of thing. The practices of gratitude are really looking at what you have rather than what you don't have, and really trying, trying to, um, You know, figure out what those things are. The other thing too, or just as simple as this sound is, is just doing simple acts of kindness out in the world.
You know, one, one little thing that, uh, gets started in my town sometimes there's a, we've got a local, um, kind of fast food restaurant called pals, and it's, uh, it's this really kind of quirky kind of drive through kind of thing. But every now and then somebody. Drive up to the drive through and they'll say, let me pay for the person behind me.
Mm-hmm. . And so that just kind of perpetuates itself and that sort of thing. Um, the other thing too, I think in living into kindness and compassion is really getting curious about others. Uh, one, one of the things that can happen. Just in relationships is we can get stuck in this loop of, of criticism and defensiveness.
Mm-hmm. and, and if we become aware of that, we can change that. Change that up instead of becoming defensive when we're faced with something that maybe we don't agree with or faced with criticism of some sort, is to get curious about what is going on with that other person in their life. Yeah. And so being able to ask questions and just get curious with the other person.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Caroline: We've been talking a little bit about the spirit of generosity. Mm-hmm. , so that the assumptions that we make about people, the way that we're curious, that we're being generous in that approach, right? Mm-hmm. , that, that we're assuming the best instead of assuming the worst and, um, And I appreciate that what you're talking about, where you started with around mindfulness and being aware mm-hmm.
of how we're thinking, you know? Mm-hmm. and how we're thinking about how we're thinking. Mm-hmm. and cuz I think that that plays out a whole lot more than, than we know that it does. Mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. the lens in which we're seeing someone or a situation, uh, really has a huge impact on what happens next.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. We, we, we, we all have a filter and, and it's, um, we don't, um, I think when the more we can become aware of our filter, It gives us room to be able to see things from another perspective. Mm-hmm. , I was, I was sharing as, as we're recording this, we were at a, a clergy retreat and we were sharing, uh, in our groups just about some different things around, um, you know, what, what are our vulner vulnerable places?
And, um, you know, the context at which we were sharing it was the scripture just around. Um, Mary Magdalene going to the empty tomb, and what was her experience around that? But one, one of the things, an image, a metaphor that came up for me is that, um, I have this picture that I, I use with clients in my office sometimes, and it's an optical illusion of this and a lot of people have seen it.
It's, uh, if you look at it one way, it looks like an older woman. And if you look at it another way, it looks like a younger. It. And one, one of the things that we have to do in order to see it one way or another is our brain has to make this switch. Mm-hmm. . And so one of the things that I do for fun is ask people, okay, what is it a picture of?
Is it an old woman or is it a young woman? And the truth of the matter is it's not either or. It's both. And it's both and yes. And, and so I think one of the things. Living into kindness and compassion is being willing to embrace the both and rather than the either or.
Caroline: Yes. And, and one thing that I'm finding myself really curious about, and I've been curious about this for a while, is how, and you, you named it quickly earlier.
Um, Our practice of self-compassion. Mm-hmm. , and I really appreciate Kristin Neff's work on this. Mm-hmm. , and she breaks it down into three main things of, do I talk to myself, the way I would talk to someone that I love. Um, a sense of common humanity. Mm-hmm. , um, you know, is. Remembering that I'm not the only one who's ever been through this.
I'm not the only one who's ever had this emotion, um, or felt like this. And then with a sense of a sense of mindfulness mm-hmm. , um, and, and being aware. Of, you know, how we're feeling and, and, and providing ourselves. Mm-hmm. some, some, some empathy around our own feelings. Not being afraid to feel the feelings.
Right. Um, and, and I think it's so interesting what we do as Christians. With self-compassion. Like I've worked with people who really struggled. I mean, my, myself at times. Mm-hmm. struggled with, you know, is it okay to be compassionate towards myself? Mm-hmm. , I mean, is that, is that even Christian? Yes. You know, is that, is that okay?
Mm-hmm. , do you run
Gordon Brewer: into this? Yes. You know, one, one of the things that, um, we can do, and this is something I've had to learn for myself, and we, Caroline and I were having the conversation earlier about the Enneagram and the fact that I'm an Enneagram two and one of the things that two Engram two s can fall into as we can be real in tune with helping others, which the Engram two is the.
Helping others, but we, we don't know how to help ourselves. Mm-hmm. . And one, one, again, a metaphor that I like is if you think about, um, when we fly and you get on a plane, and the first thing they do is go through this safety routine, and the one thing they tell you about that is that the oxygen mask comes down is to put your own on first.
Mm-hmm. . Because if you're not taking care of yourself first, Our ability to take care of others is greatly diminished. Yeah. And so I think that, you know, I think a lot of times we think about as being maybe a little selfish or I'm just thinking about myself, but really if you think about it, it is, is a way of really making sure that we.
Or have our best ability to help others. Um, yeah. Yes.
Caroline: Right. Because if we keep sacrificing ourselves, we really don't have much to authentically mm-hmm. , um, be able, be able to, to offer in terms of kindness or compassion with
Gordon Brewer: other people. Yeah. Yeah.
Billy: Yeah. And I like how you kind of began, um, as we started having this conversation with gratitude mm-hmm.
as, as one of those practices. And, and it seems at as, um, as we were just kind of talking about self-compassion and, and having compassion for others, I just wonder about the practice of being grateful. And, and that sense of gratitude and, and how it might open us to a deeper sense of compassion and even self-compassion.
Mm-hmm. and because it, it orients our attention toward the things that, that are actually helping us flourish as per persons. Yes. Right? Yes. And, and can, um, Maybe Reor reorient us just enough that the thing that, uh, we might be struggling with, um, doesn't consume us. Yes. Doesn't consume our attention. And then from that space of gratitude, we can look back on
Mm-hmm. , whatever that might be, with a certain kind of kindness.
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yes. It's, you know, it's interesting with, uh, my work as a therapist, um, Work with a lot of folks struggling with depression, anxiety, and those kinds of things. And when you think about it, when people are really in the throes of depression or if they're struggling with anxiety, which those two, those two states are go hand in hand.
Mm-hmm. , I mean, it's just that you don't, you very rarely see one without the other, but it's a very much an inward focus. You know, they get consumed with what's going on with themselves. Mm-hmm. and when they can, when they start to heal, you see that shift of focus of being more outward. Yeah. They, they start being able to engage with the world more, engage with others more, and, and also being able to, you know, that whole focus of changing of from what I don't have to what I do have.
Yes. And so, yeah.
Billy: And it cultivate. So gratitude cultivates a certain kind of mindfulness, right? Mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. . And, and the more I become mindful of things for which I am grateful, it, it opens me to a deeper awareness of other people in, in a compassionate way. And, and what I'm, um, just thinking about my own experience, there's, there's a sense in which when I can name the things for which I am grateful.
I become a little bit more sensitive to all the things. That makes it hard for others to be grateful. Mm-hmm. and, and when I can be a little bit curious about how hard it was initially for me to start naming all the things for which I'm grateful mm-hmm. and still do it. I, I know that somebody else might be having that same struggle mm-hmm.
and, and I can remain curious with them, with the spirit of generosity, knowing. Hmm. Maybe there's something I can do to help them shift their orientation toward gratitude. Mm-hmm. , instead of going, that person's driving me crazy. Yes. Mm-hmm. , I, I can't stand when they do that. Mm-hmm. . So instead of entering that space of judgment from that place of gratitude, I begin to think, Hmm, how might I be a conduit?
Gratefulness mm-hmm. so that they too might, uh, enter that space with me and, and we can walk this way together. Right,
Gordon Brewer: right. Yeah. It's a, it's a, one way I think about this as well is. Being able to learn the other person's story. Yeah. Because when you, when you understand what is going on in the background for, for someone, then that, that judgment can kinda, it gives us room to not be so judgmental.
Mm-hmm. , because we understand. What they've been through, what they, what their life has been like. Why, why they might see the world as they see it. Or as I ask my clients a lot of times, as you know, why do, why do you think you are like you are? Yeah. You know, what has, what, what are the things that have happened to you in your life to be able to, to operate in this way?
And the thing about it is, is that most of us, We don't realize it until we start practicing mindfulness and gratitude and those kinds of things. Um, we can, there, there's a little part of our brain called the amygdala and it's there totally to keep us safe and to keep us alive. And what happens is, is that we, when we're traumatized or we, we are, you know, going through hard times or whatever, that part of our brain can kind of take over.
And so we're operating out of fear and out of, um, in a survival mode and when we can get curious with others. That gives them a little more safety and then we can begin to have a conversation and that it's a safe place for them to be and, and, and, and that sort of thing. Yeah.
Billy: It, you know, it really, it really gets that, um, that space is something we create together.
Mm-hmm. , you know, it's not just something we occupy at the same time mm-hmm. , but we're actually cultivating space with others by. , we relate to them. Yes. So kindness, generosity, gratefulness, and so I mean, what you just put your finger on that sense. If, if I can be curious and, and have that spirit of generosity toward another person.
It really opens them to that new vulnerable space that they may have been waiting for. Mm-hmm. , but not quite sure how to enter in. Right, because it wasn't there. And so we create it together. Mm-hmm. and, and as we live into it together, the space that we're creating, it enables us all to experience that deeper aliveness in, in a safe, in that safe space that we are creating.
Gordon Brewer: Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, yeah. You know, it's kind of. . You know, every time I see you, Caroline, I'm always reminded of Brene Brown . I just, I know you're a big fan as well, but one of the, one of the lines that she uses a lot is the story we tell ourself. Mm-hmm. , but we also tell stories to ourselves about others.
Totally. And so, well, we can get some truth around the story about the. That opens up a whole new possibility. Yes.
Caroline: And you know, one of the things I've been thinking about too though, is we don't always have the privilege of knowing someone else's story. Right? Right. I mean, for a variety of reasons. We may never know.
Um, and it are there ways in which even without getting to know the story, we can still come to the table, come to the conversation. Hold that person, um, with a regard of, of a spirit of generosity and, and with kindness and compassion, even if we don't know mm-hmm. and we may never know.
Gordon Brewer: Right.
Billy: Yeah. Cause we, cause we, we can't fully understand another person's story.
No. No matter how, how much they pour their heart open to us. Mm-hmm. . Because it's their story and, and so they share it with us, and if we hold that with them and receive it as they offer it mm-hmm. then, then it does in that nonjudgmental posture enable us to remain curious mm-hmm. and, and actually receive them as they are.
Mm-hmm. , which, which again opens them to. A deeper awareness of who they are. Yes. Um, a deeper awareness of the goodness of life. That's all around us. And, and, and we, again, create a kind of space together and, and, and we all become more fully alive in the process. And, and that's the whole beauty of the spirit of generosity, this curiosity mm-hmm.
and, and being responsible to. That aliveness in others. Mm-hmm. , not just thinking, oh, that's how they are, but just receiving them. Mm-hmm. listening and, and just really, really being curious the whole time. Mm-hmm. and holding them gently. Mm-hmm. .
Gordon Brewer: Yes. Yeah. And that to me, that's the essence of kindness and compassion.
Mm-hmm. , I mean, that's just being able to, um, That, that gentleness that you, you speak of is, is really because there's, um, you know, all of us, uh, are, are fragile in different ways and being able to have, um, compassion for that fragility. Am I making a word here? But, um, yeah, and, and I think that's really where, where it starts, where we can really begin to change.
The discourse that we have with people. Mm-hmm. . Um,
Caroline: and I think too, that Jesus has so much to teach us about this. I mean, throughout the gospels,
Billy: that's how you bring up Jesus everywhere. Right. So
Caroline: much to teach. So much to teach is that he, but he's constantly, I mean, compassion is about turning towards Yes.
And, and with a, like a, a warmth in our being and in a sense of just like you're saying, And Billy's saying too gentleness and, um, and, and Jesus turns towards so many people, uh, who everybody else has written off. And, and not only written off, but have justified themselves for not turning towards, it's like, oh, well, I'm not gonna turn towards them.
Like that's, that would make me unclean. Or that. So there's all these ways and we, we still. We have all these ways that we don't turn towards people. Mm-hmm. , um, it's painful to turn towards people who are hurting and suffering and in pain and, and yet that's the example of Jesus over and over again.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
It comes, it comes back down to vulnerability of being able to have the courage to be vulnerable with, with others. Yes. And even, you know, Being able to approach someone that you know is maybe hurting or is, is struggling with life or they're just, they're, they're being outcast by everybody.
Caroline: Well, and this is where I think self-compassion is so incredibly helpful too, right?
Gordon? Is that. Um, when I turn towards someone else's pain and I'm not okay and haven't been present to my own mm-hmm. , it makes it really hurt hard to turn towards because it's going to touch down in my own pain. Oh yeah. We're social creatures. It's how it happens.
Billy: Well, because what we're doing right is we're.
We're turning away from ourselves and our own pain. Mm-hmm. . And so, so before we can turn toward others, we need to turn toward ourselves and just Right. Sort of own it and work through it and find our way through and be gentle toward
Caroline: ourselves. Yes. Mm-hmm. . But, and I guess you're right, that, that it does work both ways in that sometimes we dodge our own pain and suffering by turning towards someone else's.
Mm. and sometimes we don't turn towards other people's pain because somehow some way it's gonna touch down in our own. Right. Right, right. So whatever way you flip the coin mm-hmm. , you do have to turn towards your own pain. Mm-hmm. . And the more you can do so with kindness and compassion. Yeah. Following that example of Jesus that.
The better it's gonna go not only for yourself, but when you turn towards other people. Right. Um, in a genuine place of serving rather than I have to, or I should, or it's the right thing to do. Mm-hmm. . Cause people know when you're turning towards them. Mm-hmm. in a true spirit of generosity with an open, big, open, grateful heart.
Mm. For life versus turning towards their pain cuz they're that like drudgery. Mm-hmm. , you know, like, oh God, I can't believe I have to be doing this right now. Right. And people can feel it regardless of the words that you use.
Gordon Brewer: Right, right. And I think that's what, you know, here we are talking about Jesus. I think that's why Jesus drew people in, because people sensed his, his genuineness and the fact that he.
You know, and just embody that, that way of being,
Caroline: that that deep level of care. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah.
Billy: And. And gentleness is a fruit
Caroline: of the spirit. I know. I was thinking the same thing. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. Yes.
Billy: And I love, you know, Paul writes in his letter to Titus, he says, um, let your gentleness be known by all mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. . And, you know, and Paul has a wonderful way of talking about these things. You know, the only, the only place where Paul talks. Competing is to compete in love. Mm-hmm. , the only thing that you need to let everybody know about is your gentleness. Yes. And, and it's just wonderful. You know, these are, these are not prideful things.
These are, these are ordinary practices to which we give our lives as followers of Jesus. Mm-hmm. and, and just good humans in the world. Mm-hmm. that enable. To have, have a shared sense of our humanity to live gently. I mean, I, I think, uh, is it amus, um, uh, live gently while comely with God? Mm-hmm. and gentleness is such a part of what it really means to be human.
Yes.
And
Caroline: Oh, and how we have forgotten that. Yeah.
Gordon Brewer: Oh, well, let's say, you know, it's how we start out in life. Mm. I mean, that's, that, that is absolutely what we have to have when we're born. Mm. The baby has to be held. Mm-hmm. , and it has to be gazed. The mom and mom and dad need to gaze into the baby's eyes with love and gentleness and kindness, and, and if that doesn't, , then bad things start happening.
Mm-hmm. , and we carry that all the way through our lives. Yeah. I mean, it's, we have this innate desire to connect in that way. Yes. You know, we, we mess it up with a lot of other stuff in lives, in our lives, but at our very core, we have to have that gentleness and that that closeness and the, the, just the, the image of, you know, a mom holding her.
It. Mm-hmm. is, is what we, what we. What we have to have in order to, in order to thrive. In order to thrive.
Caroline: That's what I was thinking too, in order to thrive. Yeah. You know one thing about this too, though, um, Kristen Neff, going back to her work for a minute, her most recent book is called Fierce Compassion.
And she talks about this yin yang of compassion, that we think of it as this gentle, uh, motherly warm, and there is that side of compassion. And we also have to bring in. That other side of compassion, um, that calls sometimes for action, that calls for that tougher love mm-hmm. . Um, and, and it's really that, that creates a wholeness.
Yes. Um, And, and I, I have appreciated even chewing on that.
Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's a, it's about, you know, it's that balance between being open with people and vulnerable with people, but also having boundaries Yes. To that. Yes. I mean, it's, um, you know, I think about a toddler, you know, a toddler wants to explore and, and get out, but if they don't have those boundaries, don't have, you know, a parent or a caregiver to reign them in.
That can, that can get outta control for them. So we need need those, both the both of those pieces. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , I think it's
Caroline: important. Well, wow. This has been a great conversation.
Billy: I know. It's been fabulous.
Caroline: It's been wonderful, Gordon, thank
Gordon Brewer: you. Yes, yes. Thank you all.
Billy: Thanks for the work that you're doing.
Thanks.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer, Jr.

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Jay Mills | A Story of Transformation and Finding Peace | K&C 18

 

In this episode Gordon talks with The Rev. Jay Mills about his life journey of transformation and how he has changed his mind and values over the years. Jay shares how his life changed through his involvement in a 12-step program and his reconciliation with his past.  Gordon has known Jay for close to 20 years. Jay was originally one of Gordon’s priests. Gordon is currently a clergy person in the Episcopal church and Jay is retired. As Jay tells his story you will find his life is an example of kindness and compassion.

Jay Mills Early Years

The Rev. Jay Mills was raised in a middle-class home with parents that were reasonably good parents. And I ended up getting sexually assaulted when I was 12 years old, and my life very quickly unraveled. Jay started doing drugs and alcohol heavily. He ended up being addicted very young. He was also a really angry kid with a lot of violence. He lived that way until he was about 21, where he went through a conversion through the ministries of Campus Crusade for Christ. While he does not agree with their theology now, he says “I owe them my life cause as I’ve often said, if I waited for the Episcopal Church to evangelize me, I’ve died in a drug house.

He was a camp counselor not long after that. He had an experience that where he oversaw several kids. They were in the back of his car, and they flipped off a local guy. And the guy followed him into Burger King. He wanted to fight. “I just looked at him and I said, “I can fight you. I’m a Christian.” Jay says at that moment he understood exactly what Jesus was talking about. Bless your enemies. Jesus was calling me to be a person of peace.

Gun Culture in America

Understanding the virtues of humility, love, and joy, and humility have been transformative in his life. for me. In my later years was the American gun culture. He went through a lent where he didn’t carry and found it really freeing. Through that experience he ended up selling all his guns. Getting rid of them was very freeing. “There’s just too much killing going on in the United States … and Jesus really did call me to be a person of peace…”

Jay’s Process of Change

“If the Jesus movement in which I was converted, had a dark side, it evolved very quickly into conservative politics.” He assumed that he had to partake in that “dark side”, and it didn’t fit. Jay describes himself as “a campus radical wannabe in the sixties and early seventies.” He never fit that very well and has slowly grown out of it. One of the biggest changes he made was in gay and lesbian people. Jay was reported to the head of the Integrity chapter, which was the gay and lesbian group in the Episcopal church at the time about 15 years ago now. Jay had an interchange with a parishioner who was gay. The head of the group and Jay met. At the time, Jay believed homosexuality was a sin. And despite our differences, we became friends. I was challenged during our meeting to do my research.

In seminary, Jay learned to read Hebrew and Greek. So, he did his research. And to his surprise, it changed his mind. He came to believe that we’ve been wrong about homosexuality. Those passages that report being anti-gay are not necessarily that way when read in the original Greek or when read in context or in when read with their culture in mind.

As Jay explains, the story of Sodom and Gamora is not about gay love. It’s about rape. And the lack of hospitality of the people of Sodom and Gamora. And that hospitality to this day is one of the cardinal virtues of the Middle East. And the condemnation in Romans has more to do with the worship of the god’s sibling than homosexuality. Jay had promised his friend, “If I ever changed my mind I would go to bat for them.” And he did and for several years. At the Dawson Conventions, every year he would end up speaking in favor of changing our mind about it.

The Process of Making Peace

Gordon asked Jay a Question about the process of making peace with yourself. Jay said “It’s interesting. I am. A member of a 12-step group having to do with alcohol and drugs. I was working with a sponsor and I always had a lot of anger and rage and it came through spiritually and emotionally in my ministry, unfortunately, from time to time, and he and I were working on the steps.”

Jay continues “If you don’t know the steps, the four steps you write down all the things you’ve done. Basically, the resentments you have, the things you’ve done. Eventually, you get to the people you’ve hurt in the fifth and sixth steps. And he had a dog that he’d rescued from the fights, a pit bull, and she wanted nothing to do for me.”

Jay notes “She could read all that anger and rage that I carried around in me. And at the very end of working the fourth and fifth and sixth steps, we knelt down to pray. And that dog came up and leaned up against me because unbeknownst to me, God had lifted all that rage and anger out of me. Cuz I, I, when I was a young man, I would beat people till they quit moving.”

After working through those steps and the prayer Jay expressed “And it just, it’s never been there since. It’s, God simply took it.”

Jay said he thinks the first thing to recognize is that it almost always it comes out of trauma in childhood. In that case, he usually refers them to a therapist who can really help them work with it. Another option is a 12-step group if they have an alcohol or drug addiction problem. 12-step groups are a great place, to work on all that because the steps really strip you down and make you face yourself. And you don’t carry that garbage around with you anymore. There are solutions and “you don’t have to go around mad at the world.”

Wrestling with Fears

“I still wrestle with the fears.” Jay was reading Richard Ross commentary on the Sermon on the Mount. The first five chapters are the historical background to the Ministry of Jesus. He said he’s got a list of things he affirms. One of those is that God is on your side. One of the later ones is that everything is heading somewhere good. Ross makes the comment that the world is a safe place. Jay said “And I semi-believe that. I also believe that it could be a very dangerous place. And that’s where the promises of the call of Jesus to love those who persecute you to love your enemies. Where the rubber really meets the. I don’t want to have someone slap me on the face and have to turn the other cheek.”

Jay continues, “I fear it. But I, but that’s what I’m called to. And ultimately I’ve found whatever traumatic things happen to me, God uses them as gifts for serving other people in the end. So, I can face the fears with a certain amount of hope that God will do something good.”

In the AA and NA and other 12-step groups, the premise is that if you’re going to get sobriety, you’re going to have to give it away and help other people and help other people in other ways besides just. Self-centered fears are at the core of all the stuff that drives us. Jay says he was one of the “baddest guys on the block” as a young adolescent and early 20-year-old and was scared all the time. “Nobody knew it and I couldn’t afford to help other people. I can now, I can learn to go beyond myself, and my self-centered fears, and reach out.”
Ways to live with more compassion and Kindness

Jay wants us to practice kindness towards ourselves. The kind of kindness that God practices. Jay thinks an awful lot of American religion sees God as an ogre waiting to swat them down. “I just don’t believe that God is revealed except in a few places in the Bible that I just don’t pay attention to.” Actually, there’s a saying in the 12-step programs, “Fake it till you make it.” Act compassionate until you feel compassionate. There are actions that drive our feelings, not the other way around. When we’re stuck in fear-based stuff, our feelings drive our actions. But to learn to act first and let the feelings follow, which Jay says is vital.

Another way to live with compassion and kindness is to avoid isolation. Because our minds can conjure up all kinds of fears and self-doubt that have no connection to reality whatsoever. And then we can get stuck in ourselves and lose the compassion and mercy that we are called to live.

“Where religion is important, where Christianity and all of that is that there’s an, there’s a different way of living into it, of understanding.
And anytime you see the words “belief in, I believe or belief in” in the New Testament, read the word “trust” and it’ll completely revolutionize how you read the New Testament.

Although officially “retired” Jay is currently serving as an Associate Rector at St. Margaret’s Episcopal Church in Waxhaw, NC.  Jay helps with pastoral care and still enjoys teaching, Biblical research, and occasional fly fishing.  He and his wife Karen have two adult children,  and 5 grandchildren.

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[00:00:00] Jay Mills: Okay. Hi, I'm Jay Mills. I'm happy to be on the Kindness and Compassion broadcast with Gordon Brewer and talk about some things that have happened in my life.
[00:00:18] Gordon Brewer: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to the podcast and I'm so glad and really very thankful that my good dear friend, the Reverend j Mills is with me here today. Welcome, Jay. Thank you. Glad to be here. Yes. And so Jay and I have probably known each other probably close to 20 years. Is that, would that be our Yeah, 94.
Yeah. So we've known each other a long time and been through a lot together. Just, uh, when Jay was, uh, Jay was, uh, originally one of my priests in the past. And, um, as I've shared on other shows, I'm, I'm a clergy person in the Episcopal church and Jay is retired. We're going back to working, but, um, I'm gonna let Jay kind of tell his story because I think one of the things that I know about Jay is, is that his story very much lives into this whole concept of kindness and compassion.
So, Jay, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed where you've landed. How
[00:01:22] Jay Mills: far, far back you
[00:01:23] Gordon Brewer: want me to go? Yeah. . So you start where you feel like you wanna
[00:01:27] Jay Mills: start. Okay. Well, I, I, um, was raised in a middle class home, uh, with parents that were re reasonable good parents. Um, And I ended up getting sexually assaulted when I was 12 years old, and my life very quickly unraveled.
I started doing drugs heavily and alcohol, and ended up being addicted very, very young and was also a really angry kid with a lot of violence. And, um, was that way until, until I was about 21, where I went through a conversion through the ministries of Campus Crusade for Christ, which is a very fundamentalist campus organization.
Uh, I don't agree with her theology at all now, but I owe them my life. Cause as I've often said, if I waited for the Episcopal Church to evangelize me, I've died in a drug house. , um, sadly. Mm-hmm. . It was, it was the real deal. I, I, uh, one of the stories I tell about the change that happened in me, I was a camp counselor not long after that, and I was in charge of several kids who were in the back of my car and they flipped off a local guy, uh, in this camp, conference center town called Romney.
And the guy followed me into a, into a. Burger King, I think, and, uh, wanted to fight. I just looked at him and I said, I can fight you. I'm a c. Um, and, and I understood exactly what Jesus was talking about in, in the lessons for this coming, uh, all Saint Sunday. Bless your enemies. A player for those who persecute you.
Um, uh, he, he was calling me to be a person of of peace. Umhmm . And, um, I've, I've had good days in that. I've had bad days in that. Um, and, um, I've undergone a pretty significant change in the last year, um, primarily, uh, through the auspices of the Anglican or Episcopal Society in St. Francis. Uh, I'm affiliating as a third order Franciscan, which is a lay order of Franciscan's, and they, they stress the three.
Virtues of, of, um, uh, humility, love, and joy, uh, which are humility. Part I, I've got pretty well, the love part, I've got less well and the joy part I have to really struggle with. Mm-hmm. . Um, but it's, it's been transformative for me. Um, I was one, one of the things I drifted back into, In my later years was, was the gun culture at America.
And, um, went through a lent where I, where I didn't carry, um, and found it really freeing and ended up selling all my guns and, and tickled to death to be done with them. There's just too much killing going on in the United States and I don't wanna be. Uh, and, and Jesus really did call me to be a person of peace, and that doesn't include that mm-hmm.
So that, that, that was a, that's, that's been a big change in the last year. Yeah.
[00:04:50] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. That's about it. Yeah. Well, it's a, And knowing, and as I mentioned at the beginning, and knowing you, Jay, for as long as I've known you, I've kinda seen your transformation, um, from when you first came where Jay was. Had lived here in the same town that I live in Kingsport, Tennessee.
And, um, our area is a fairly conservative, uh, pretty right wing area here. Oh, yeah. And, and I know that you went through some other transformations and just kind of changing your mind about some of those conservative views and. Ways of seeing things. Um, do you mind sharing just kind of what that process was like for you and some of the things that kinda led to that change of mind?
[00:05:37] Jay Mills: Well, if the, if the, the Jesus movement in which I was converted. Had a dark side. It, it evolved very quickly into conservative, uh, conservative politics rather. Uh, and I made the assumption that I had to partake in that mm-hmm. and it didn't fit. I was, uh, campus radical wannabe in, in the sixties and early seventies.
Uh, and I never fit that very well and, I've slowly grown out of it and been willing to grow out of it. Um, and the, the, one of the biggest changes I made was in the area of gay and lesbian people. Um, I, I was reported to the head of the Integrity chapter, which was the gay and lesbian group in the Episcopal church at the time, Oh, about 15 years ago now.
A, as I had had an interchange with a parishioner who was gay. And, um, the head of the group and I met and we became, in spite of our differences, I, I thought homosexuality was a sin. And, uh, in spite of our differences, we became friends. And she challenged me during ent. ENT seems to be always the time when I do all this big changing.
Mm-hmm. challenged me during lent to do the research. Again, I was for. In seminary, I got to learn to read Hebrew and Greek, um, and did the research. Left wing research, right wing research, exo Jesus of the passages. And to my surprise, changed my mind. Um, and came to believe that we've been wrong about homosexuality and that those passages that report to be, um, Anti-gay are not necessarily that way when red in the original Greek or when red in context.
Culturally. Um, for example, the story of Sodom and Gamora is not about gay love. It's about rape. Um, and, and, and the lack of hospitality of the people of, of Sodom and Gamora. And, and that's hospitality to this day is the, one of the cardinal virtues of the Middle East. Um, And the, the, the condemnation in Romans, in the beginning of Romans, uh, I, I think that has more to do with the worship of the god's sibling than the, than than homosexuality.
Mm-hmm. . Um, and I promised my friend our very first conversation, If I ever changed my mind, I, I would go to bat for them. And I did and, uh, for, for several years was on the other side of it than my bishop. And at Dawson Conventions, every year would end up speaking in favor of changing our mind about it and mm-hmm.
and he would not relent and we managed to remain friends because I'm, I, by then, I'd learn to not be so aggressive and, and. And spiritually, emotionally violent when I said and did things. Um, but it was a, it was a huge transformation.
[00:08:47] Gordon Brewer: Yes.
[00:08:47] Jay Mills: Yes. So it was funny. I'd always been blessed with gay friends.
Mm-hmm. . Um, but I didn't know the barrier that that had put up. I, I made amends to all my gay friends and, and it, it changed the relationships enormously with a couple of them.
[00:09:03] Gordon Brewer: Right. Yeah. So that's kind of the Ulta. How did, um, I don't, I don't know. You, you might have kind of answered this question, but when I think about kindness and compassion, I guess the word peace comes to to mind.
But what, how did you, what was the, the process of making peace with yourself about kind of those past things plus how you handle 'em now?
[00:09:30] Jay Mills: Well, it's interesting. I, I am. Uh, a member of a 12 step group having to do with alcohol and drugs, and I was working with a sponsor and I always had a lot of anger and rage and it, and it came through, uh, spiritually and emotionally in my ministry, unfortunately, from time to time, and he and I were working on the steps.
If you don't know the steps, the four steps, you, you write down all the, all the things you've done. Basically the, the resentments you have, the things you've done, um, the, eventually you get to the people you've hurt in, in the fifth and sixth step. Um, and he had a dog that. He'd rescued from the fights, a pit bull, and she wanted nothing to do for me.
She could read all that anger and rage that I carried around in me. And, um, at the very end of working the fourth and fifth and sixth step, we knelt down to pray. And that dog came up and leaned up against me because unbeknownst to me, God had lifted all that rage and anger out of me. Cuz I, I, when I was a young man, I would beat people till they quit moving.
Mm. Um, and it just, it's never been there since. It, it's, God simply took it.
[00:10:48] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love hearing that story. I, I know that that's, uh, quite a transformation for you Oh, as you've, Yeah. Yeah. And, and so in your work with people as a, as a pastor and as, um, as a priest, if, if a person is maybe struggling with some of the same things, what sort of, how do you, how do you kind of work with them in, in kind of reconciling a lot of this?
[00:11:18] Jay Mills: Um,
I think the first thing to recognize that almost always it comes outta trauma in childhood. Mm-hmm. , in my opinion. Um, and to begin to, to, I, I, I usually refer them to a therapist who can really help them work with it. Mm-hmm. . Or to 12 step groups if they've got an alcohol or drug addiction problem. Uh, 12 step groups are a great place to, to work on all that cuz the steps really strip you down and make you face yourself.
Mm-hmm. and you don't carry
[00:11:55] Gordon Brewer: that garbage around with you anymore. Mm-hmm. .
[00:11:58] Jay Mills: Um, but, but I also tell 'em that, that there are solutions mm-hmm. , um, that you don't have to go around mad at the world.
[00:12:08] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. It's a, Yeah, it's a, and I think a lot of times people will, um, there's a lot of fear involved and in terms of well, it's the baseline for it.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. And so it, what was, what were some of the things that help you, I mean, obviously prayer and 12 step programs and that sort of thing kind of help you do that, but what are some of the, the other things that helped you kind of overcome some of the fears?
[00:12:38] Jay Mills: Oh, I still wrestle with the fears. Uh, I was reading, uh, Richard Ros, um, commentary on the, uh, Sermon on the Mount, which is really good.
The first five chapters are, are historical background to the Ministry of Jesus, and he's just now getting to the Sermon on the Mount, but he said, said he's got a list of, of things he affirms. One of those is that, that God is on your side, which I. , uh, one of the later ones is that everything is heading somewhere good, which I believe, but he makes the comment that the world is a safe place.
And, um, I semi believe that. I also believe that it's could be a very dangerous place. Mm-hmm. . And that's where, that's where the promises of, of the call of Jesus to love those who persecute you, uh, to love your enemies. Where the rubber really meets the. Um, I, I, I don't want to have someone slap me on the face and have to turn the other cheek.
Mm-hmm. , I fear it. Um, but I, but that's what I'm called to. Yeah. Um, and, and ultimately I've found whatever, whatever traumatic things happen to me, God uses them, uh, as griffs for serving other people in the end. Mm-hmm. so I can face the fears with, with a certain amount of hope that God will do something good.
Yeah. I
[00:14:07] Gordon Brewer: don't know if that made any sense, but Yeah. What, Well, what I, what I was thinking of as you were saying this, is that, um, you know, in, in my work as a, the, as a therapist, A lot of the, a lot of the struggles that people have, um, they are very inwardly focused when they're having those struggles. Oh yeah.
Yeah. They're just wrapped up with the things that are going on in their mind and in their soul and all of that sort of thing. And I think when you can begin to turn that outward and really kinda show concern for others and focus on. Just being sojourners with other people that are struggling, that's when things begin to change for people.
[00:14:49] Jay Mills: Oh, I agree with that completely. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. The, the, the AA and, and NA and other 12 step groups, the premise is that if you're gonna get sobriety, you're gonna have to give it away mm-hmm. and help other people and, and help other people in, in other ways besides just. The, the self-centered fears are at the core of, of all, all the stuff that drives us.
Yeah. I was, I was one of the baddest guys on the block as, as a young adolescent and early 20 year old and was scared all the time. Mm-hmm. , but nobody knew it. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , Uh, and I couldn't afford to, to help other people. Uh, I can now, I can, I can learn to go beyond myself, my self-centered fears and reach out.
[00:15:40] Gordon Brewer: Right, Right. Yeah. Yeah. So,
[00:15:44] Jay Mills: and, and need to when I'm in my fears.
[00:15:47] Gordon Brewer: Yeah. Yeah. So if, if people are thinking about how, maybe ways in which they can live more into kindness and compassion, what have you found are the ways that you do that? Um.
[00:16:08] Jay Mills: Practice kindness towards yourself that, that God practices mm-hmm. , um, I think an awful lot of American religion sees God as an ogre waiting to swat them down, and I just don't believe that that's the God is revealed except in a few places in the Bible that I just don't pay attention to.
[00:16:26] Gordon Brewer: Mm-hmm. , um,
[00:16:33] Jay Mills: Actually, there's a, there's a saying in the 12 step programs, Fake it till you make it. Mm-hmm. to act compassionate until you feel compassionate. Mm-hmm. , there are actions drive our feelings, not the other way around. When we're, when we're stuck in fear-based stuff, our feelings drive our actions. Mm-hmm.
but to learn to act first and let the feelings follow, and I, I think that's vitally
[00:16:58] Gordon Brewer: important. Yeah. Yeah. I, I would totally agree with that. Is that, um, you know, if we , if we, if we wait around to feel the right way to do things, we probably wouldn't get anything done. It'll never happen. No. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, Yeah. And I, I have to,
[00:17:18] Jay Mills: I have to, uh, avoid isolation. Mm. Because my mind can conjure up all kinds of fears and, and self doubt that that has no,
[00:17:29] Gordon Brewer: no connection to reality whatsoever. Mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. ,
[00:17:32] Jay Mills: and then I, then I get stuck in, in, in self and lose the, that compassion and that mercy that I'm called by
[00:17:41] Gordon Brewer: God to, to embody.
Mm. Yes. Yes. So, uh, there might be folks that are listening that are maybe hearing a little bit different way of thinking about Christianity. So what, um, if you could kinda summarize maybe how you see your life as a follower of Christ now as opposed to how he used to do things. Um, um, Okay. Go ahead. Yeah.
Yeah. Well,
[00:18:16] Jay Mills: I was an absolute literalist when I was first converted in 1975 because the people who converted me were, uh, and the first, and they were, they were big into the second coming. They were, they were convinced if it didn't happen today, it was gonna happen yesterday. Mm-hmm. . And one of the things I began to notice is that none of them agreed on what any given scripture passage predicting the second coming, if indeed it did predict the second coming, which many of them.
Um, none of 'em agreed on it, and I began to smell a rat. Mm-hmm. . Um, and I went, went to theological, uh, school, uh, Virginia Seminary in Alexander, Virginia, and was taken under the wing of a really prominent, fairly, um, oh. Skeptical New Testament professor. Who taught me to think mm-hmm. , and I still see scripture as God's word, but, but I don't believe it's inherent.
Mm-hmm. , I don't believe that every word of it, uh, represents truth. I don't believe in an eight day creation. Um, I, I know that, that John paints a very different picture than Matthew, Mark and Luke of Jesus. Mm-hmm. and, and each one of 'em is a reflection of the Jesus they've encountered. Um, uh, I. I know that in John's gospel, Jesus cleanses the temple early in his ministry.
And Matthew Martin. Luke, it's late in the ministry. And I can go on and on and on and on about the, the, the differences. And yet when I read scripture, uh, with an open heart, I hear God speak. Mm-hmm. . Um, but there are many who would not consider me Christian anymore.
[00:20:01] Gordon Brewer: Interesting. Yeah. Well I think it's a, you know, one of the things that I hope through this podcast is that people can begin to, um, particularly those of us that are.
Where religion is important, where Christianity and all of that is that there's an, there's a different way of living into it, of understanding. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I, uh, I hope that people can, maybe, they maybe pay attention to that. Um, I've, uh, as I've shared with you Jay, I put, I, I put less and less stock in belief and more stock into.
Christianity being a way of life. Um, you know what I believe or don't believe, Yeah, it's important to some degree, but that's not where we're gonna find peace.
[00:20:57] Jay Mills: Um, well, I, I think Jesus himself talked a lot about that and, and a lot had a lot to do. She's had a lot to do with the inner motives behind why we do what we.
Not our belief systems necessarily. He, he didn't, he didn't, um, deny the belief system to the Judaism he lived within, but he broke all the rules. Mm-hmm. . Um, and, and in a similar, in a similar way, although diff different, um, the word, uh, belief in the New Testament is Pisas and Greek, and it ought to be translated trust.
Instead of belief. Cause belief is an intellectual thing. Mm-hmm. . Um, and anytime you see belief in, I believe or or belief in the New Testament, read the word trust and it'll completely revolutionize how you read the New Testament. Right,
[00:21:50] Gordon Brewer: right. Yeah. Uh, this is great stuff. So I wanna be respectful of your time, Jay, and I'm so glad we connected on this and I'm sure, yeah, I'm probably.
Hopefully get you back on the podcast before too long. Okay. Just to talk about these kind of philosophical and just kind of meaningful conversations, which, uh, I'm, I'm glad for the listeners to listen in on this. So thanks again. Well, thank you.

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About Gordon

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

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Dawn Gabriel | Finding Deeper Meaning and Redemption Through Soul Care | K&C 14


In this episode Dawn Gabriel, LPC joins Gordon for a deep dive into redemption and finding your soul through spirituality, the divine, or the universe. Dawn, a licensed professional counselor and the person behind the Faith Fringes Podcast, opens the show by being vulnerable and speaking about the divorce she experienced at the age of twenty-five. Then, she explains how the divorce changed her relationship with faith and God. Tune in as we chat about the importance of finding a sense of purpose on your journey, the problem with short-term pleasure, and how to express meaning within our lives.

Meet Dawn Gabriel

Dawn Gabriel, LPC

Dawn Gabriel is the founder and CEO of Authentic Connections Counseling Center and host of Faith Fringes podcast.

Dawn creates engaging space for fellow clinicians and healers to look deeper into their spirituality and faith. She has about 20 years of diverse experience in the clinical mental health world and currently focuses on helping therapists engage their spirituality in new ways in order to cultivate a deeper and authentic connection with God. Dawn hosts Soul Care Retreats that are exclusively for therapists as she believes that we need our own sacred place to slow down and let go of all that we hold in order to continue our transformative work with others.

Dawn is a chai and wine connoisseur, a hiking trail enthusiast, a wife, and mom of two boys who all love living and adventuring in Colorado.

Free Giveaway – Spiritual Reflections Course – https://faithfringes.com/spiritual-reflections-course/
FREE 8 week email course to engage more of your own faith journey from a different perspective. Included is a journaling workbook to guide you through exercises that will help you explore what you were brought up to believe, including disillusion and hurt, while also cultivating a deeper and authentic connection with God.

Dawn’s Divorce and A Story of Redemption

Dawn went through a divorce at the age of twenty-five. She lived in a conservative culture where you don’t get a divorce, no matter what. Well, Dawn found out that her husband cheated on her. Unfortunately, Dawn did not get positive support from her church on her journey. It was the antithesis of kindness and compassion. Now, Dawn has been remarried for thirteen years; it has been her story of redemption. Something that has helped Dawn on her journey is a particular book; she recommends reading The Relentless Tenderness of Jesus by Brennan Manning.

How You Can Connect and Communicate With God

Growing up, Dawn was conservative. The churches she went to taught a lot about following the rules rather than speaking about what your relationship should look like with God. When Dawn got a divorce, she thought she was committing the biggest sin. She believed God would be condemning her during one of the worst pains of Dawn’s life. Eventually, Dawn realized she shouldn’t be thinking about what she could do for God. Instead, Dawn started to focus on how she could connect with God. Overall, think about where you find peace when communicating with God.

Ways To Find Faith In Your Daily Life

There tends to be a deeper place within our souls. Whether you have a traditional faith or not, there’s still this element that you have to ground in something bigger than yourself. The way you are doing life may not be working anymore, and you may crave something more profound. If you are on a journey of self-awareness, you may want to find faith in spirituality, the divine, or the universe. When we don’t have meaningful things in our lives, we will quickly substitute with pleasure. Things that provide us pleasure are usually short-lived and hollow. All in all, there is something bigger than ourselves, and it’s time to connect with that.

Creating A Sense of Purpose To Give Us Deeper Meaning

We should have a more profound sense of purpose and meaning, they are basic human needs. Sometimes we don’t find that more profound sense of purpose until we meet our other basic human needs. However, it’s still critical to wrestling with your sense of purpose. If you don’t find meaning, you may try and fill that void in other ways. Those other ways will not be as fulfilling as finding your purpose. We need to find ways to express meaning through kindness and compassion. That way, we can discover life-long peace, forgiveness, and purpose.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Whitney Owens | The Challenge of Caring | K&C 13


In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with Whitney Owens about being a caregiver and living into kindness and compassion through those challenges.  Whitney opens the show by talking about the book, Discernment: Reading the Signs of Daily Life by Henri J. M. Nouwen. Whitney reveals the most significant lesson she learned from that book and how it has informed her life as a mother. Then, Whitney dives straight into the importance of self-care and how it’s an essential piece of kindness and compassion. Tune in as we chat about savoring the moment, mindfulness, and creating consistent daily habits around self-care.

Meet Whitney Owens

Whitney Owens, LPC

Whitney Owens is a licensed professional counselor, group practice owner, and faith-based private practice consultant. She is located in Savannah, Georgia, where she manages a private pay group practice with 10 plus clinicians. Along with running her practice, she consults practice owners around the country on how to start and grow a successful faith-based practice. She has spoken at numerous events such as both the Georgia and Maryland annual professional counselors conference as well as trainings for Florida’s Counseling Association.

In addition to practice consulting, Whitney is an Enneagram enthusiast and offers workshops to business owners on using the Enneagram to help run their practice. In her free time, Whitney enjoys spending time with her husband and two girls, running, reading, and relaxing in the backyard.

To find out more about Whitney, visit her website: whitneyowens.com.  Or you can visit Whitney’s practice website:  https://watersedgecounseling.com/

How You Will Learn More About Who You Really Are

Whitney recommends reading the book Discernment: Reading the Signs of Daily Life. Spiritual leader and counselor Henri J. M. Nouwen wrote about the essential question asked by every Christian and seeker: What should I do with my life? Nouwen was a successful professor and writer. He left it all behind to care for people who have nothing; that’s where he learned everything about himself. This is the definition of kindness and compassion. Unfortunately, this is where Whitney struggles. Whitney can accomplish all these things professionally and personally. However, what is she doing if she can’t be available to her daughter?

The Importance of Support When It Comes To Self-Care

It’s really easy to get down on yourself. You will make mistakes and do the best you can; that’s all you can give. Whitney says it’s essential to reach out to other people and ask for help. For instance, Whitney was reluctant to accept help from others when it came to taking care of her child. You have to learn how to trust other people, or you’re going to wear yourself out. It takes a village to raise a child, so remember to find other people and asking for help. Support is the most significant self-care gift that you can receive. To maintain self-care, you have to be able to take a step back when you need to.

Savor The Moment As Part of Your Mindfulness Routine

Another thing that helps Whitney on her journey is mindfulness. We need to be mindful of the moment we have with our loved ones. Whitney’s little girl loves to snuggle. Find special moments with your loved ones; it’s imperative. Love is when we take moments, sit in them, and enjoy them. For instance, sometimes, Whitney has to be up in the middle of the night to get her daughter back to sleep. Instead of feeling irritated that she’s awake in the middle of the night, Whitney will savor the moment; she knows these precious times will not last forever.

Create Daily Habits Around Self-Care & Be Consistent

Find things you can do for yourself, like hobbies or exercise. It should be something that you’re excited and happy to do. For example, Whitney loves to run, so she sets aside time each day to get out and run. Find small things that you can be consistent about. It should be something that you do for yourself. We all need to create daily rituals for ourselves to keep ourselves grounded. Movement is a way to clear your head, meditate, and pray. Sometimes you’ll get your best ideas through movement. Overall, ensure you are consistent when it comes to your self-care habits.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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