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How To Have Healthy Relationships with Kindness & Compassion | K&C 15


Sometimes the people we are in close relationships with are the hardest to show kindness and compassion to. In this episode Gordon shares some of the research and science behind relationships.  It turns out that the key to healthy relationships is tied to recognizing interaction patterns, self-regulation, and curiosity. We can learn how to heal broken relationships and be more kind and compassionate in our key relationships. Listen in as Gordon draws from research and his years of experience in working with hundreds of couples as licensed marriage and family therapist. 

Why we hurt the ones we love

“Love hurts” is a common theme… A lot of songs about that! There are several hypothesis around why we tend to hurt those closest to us.  These include, but are not limited to:

      • We see in others similar faults to our own.
      • Out of a sense of control or retribution (“getting even”)
      • To gain attention or to engage the other person
      • As a form of self-sabotage or guilt; taking out our frustrations on others
      • No consequences for doing so; we get by with it
      • Being triggered by past emotional trauma.

What defines a healthy relationship

Although every relationship is unique, there are some characteristics of what healthy and lasting relationships look like. The research from Dr. John and Julie Gottman from the Gottman Institute reveal these characteristics of health relationships:

      • Over-all trust and commitment
      • An ability to manage and repair from conflicts
      • General sense of affection and admiration
      • Similar values and life dreams
      • Accepting the other’s influence
      • Knowing and understanding the other’s internal world; “what makes them tick”
      • Treating the internal world of the other with kindness and compassion

Patterns of Interactions

In my work with couples over the years, I often tell them, “I could really care less about what you are arguing about. But what I am interested in is HOW you argue.”  What I mean by that is the patterns of interactions and how people handle arguments is key to having a healthy relationship. 

After all, it is unrealistic to think that significant relationships will be conflict free. Every relationship has conflicts. The key to a healthy relationship is in developing healthy interaction patterns when there is conflict.

A good pattern of conflict management involves:

      • An ability of each person to self-regulate their own emotions. In other words, not letting the “anger thermometer” get too high.
      • Knowing when to table hot topics for both people to get a better perspective
      • A willingness to listen and truly hear out the other person
      • Getting curious about the other person’s internal world and experience
      • A willingness to accept the other person’s influence and do things their way
      • An ability to repair things when there has been something that hurts the other person
      • And finally, a willingness to forgive and let go. Saying “I’m sorry I hurt you” goes a long way in healing things that have hurt.

 

Criticism and Defensiveness 

According to the Gottman’s’, one of the most common negative patterns couples can get into is a pattern of criticism and defensiveness. And if not corrected or changed, over time, it leads to “stone-walling” (avoiding the other person) and/or contempt in the relationship.  

The Gottman’s refer to these things as the “Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse” (Criticism, Defensiveness, Stonewalling, and Contempt).  And also according to the Gottman’s’ research, if these patterns are not corrected or changed, the relationship is doomed to end. Especially if there is a level of contempt in the relationship.

Self-Regulation

A big part of having healthy relationships is having people that are emotionally healthy themselves.  In other words when both people are able to manage their own emotions well, they can then handle the emotions of their partner better.  

Another way to think about it is, what is your part in it? In other words, being aware of how your own actions are contributing to the problems that are happening.

This is often referred to as emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is something that is learned as we grow up but can also be learned later in life.  It doesn’t mean that emotionally intelligent people never get angry or hurt, but they are able to self-regulate and keep themselves grounded and under control when it happens.

Repairing

As mentioned above, another key component of healthy relationships is a couple’s ability to repair things once there has been a conflict.  The Gottman’s refer to this as “turning toward each other” after a conflict.  This in and of itself is the opposite of stone-walling.  

Simply put, it is a willingness of both people to “kiss and make up” after there is a conflict or feelings are hurt. This requires both people to be vulnerable with each other and know that the other will treat that vulnerability with kindness and compassion.

Play Nice

And finally, as simple as it sounds, having a healthy relationship involves both people having some affection and positive regard for each other.  They are simply nice and caring to each other.  In other words, show some kindness and compassion in your relationships.  It is the stuff of love and vulnerability. 

Conclusion

Healthy relationships are built on kindness and compassion.  After all, if you think about it, most of the problems and conflicts we have in life involve other people.  Knowing how to self-regulate and repair when there are conflicts goes a long way in helping people have healthy relationships. Also a willingness to trust and stay committed to the relationship.  After all, the #1 predictor of relationships succeeding, is a willingness of both people to stick it out with each other. And finally, the sign of a healthy relationship is when two people know the other’s internal world well and treating it with kindness and compassion.

Resources Mentioned

Attachment Theory – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

The Gottman Institute- https://www.gottman.com/

Sound Relationship House – https://www.gottman.com/blog/what-is-the-sound-relationship-house/

“Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse” – https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/

Dr. Susan Johnson – https://drsuejohnson.com/

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Gordon (00:00):
You know, in my work as a marriage and family therapist, um, I, I enjoy more than anything working with couples. It's, uh, kind of, kind of the niche I've car carved out for myself. I do work with individuals on, you know, various mental health issues, but also do a lot of work with couples. And one of the things, um, that, um, has, has pulled me into working with couples is really a lot of that desire that I have to really help people sort through the conflicts that they have, and really figure out how to have more meaningful relationships. You know, our primary, you know, as adults really most, all of us seek out a partner in life. It's kind of built into our DNA, you know, from the time that we're born, we have this innate desire to connect with others. And one of the things that's interesting is, um, you know, the, the, the divorce rates in the United States kind of hover around 50%.
Gordon (01:02):
So 50% of all first marriages, I think it's getting a little better. I haven't gone back and looked at the statistics lately, but, um, 50% of all first marriages, um, end in divorce. And that's kind of a, a sad prospect. And probably I think for some folks that are cynical, they'd say, well, why even bother if it's that bad of a, that bad of a statistic, but the truth of the matter is we need other people. And like I said, just said, is that it's kind of wired into our DNA. We want to seek out others, you know, from the time we're born, we have to connect. You know, if you think about a little baby and the need that a baby has to be held to be nurtured, to be loved to for the parents, to look into the baby's eyes and, and give that affection, if we don't do that, the baby ends up suffering from that.
Gordon (02:02):
Um, so we really need to have relationships. And the other thing that's an interesting kind of phenomenon is you look at the number of people that are out there that have either gone through, uh, are in their second or third marriages. Uh, and so you, you logic would kind of tell you that, okay, if I had bad experience with relationships, uh, then I, I don't want to try to do that again. I should, you know, just stay on my own, but we, we don't do that. We very quickly seek out others to be in relationship with. So it's a really, really, if you think about it, it's really a primary need we have as human beings is to be in those close intimate relationships. Not only when I say intimacy, uh, not only mean like ULA LA intimacy, but kind of intimacy of, of emotion.
Gordon (03:00):
And that's really the foundation of a healthy relationship. So what I'd like to talk with you about is to think about, um, what makes up a healthy relationship. And it turns out that there's been a lot of research into this, about what, what constitutes a, a healthy relationship and a lot of what I'm gonna talk about in here. I wanna give, uh, credit where credit is due. And this comes from the research of the Gottman's John and Julie Gottman are a husband and wife research team that have done over 40 years of research into marriage and relationships. And, um, I'm gonna have a link here to their Institute. The got Gottman Institute will be here in the show notes, but John and Julie Gottman, what they did is they, they took couples and they wanted to really kind of figure out what makes a relationship last and what makes for successful marriages.
Gordon (03:58):
And so, um, what they did is they took couples and they did this with both heterosexual couples and gay couples. And, um, they, they just put 'em in this, this retreat center called the love lab that they, they created, and they would have graduate students just observe what was going on as couples interacted with each other. And they would have, 'em wired up to look at heart rate and brainwaves and all of that sort of thing. And what they quickly discovered was that there were certain patterns that emerged as they watched couples interact with each other. And some of the patterns that they noticed were, were healthy patterns, and the couples were doing well with each other, but then there were the other couples that were, they noticed very quickly that if, as they watched them interact, that things weren't going well. And, but what they did in their study too, was to follow these couples over several years.
Gordon (04:53):
And the ones that they noticed that had the unhealthy patterns were doomed to fail. And I'm gonna talk a little bit more about those patterns here in a minute, but one of, one of the things I wanted to think about first is why is it that we tend to hurt the ones we love so to speak? And there's a lot of hypothesis around that. And some of the, some of it maybe points to the fact that with those that we're, we're closest to, we can, we tend to be, let our guard down a little bit more. In other words, we not always on our best behavior. And, and part of that is, is that we can get by with it. But also I think it's just, um, has to do with how we attach with other people, um, not to get too far off on this whole, um, psychological lesson, but there are some things that are both, uh, there's this thing called attachment theory, where it looks at how we bond with other people.
Gordon (05:55):
And so there are healthy attachments and unhealthy attachments. There are people that have kind of, of avoidant attachments. There are people that have kind of insecure attachments or anxious attachments. Again, not gonna go too far down that rabbit trail, but I'll try to put some links in the, uh, show notes here. That'll tell you more about that. But the other thing that we have to think about when, why we tend to hurt peop those that we're closest to, I think when we're close to people, we notice in them maybe faults of our own. And so we notice those faults that we own, we have for ourselves, and we kind of take it out on the other person. And I know I've been guilty of that in the past in relationships and will, will, will tend to be critical of somebody else's fault when we really know, uh, for ourselves that we contain that own fault, that, that, that same fault, uh, the other thing too, is, is that when you've got situations where people have gone through trauma, or they've gone through maybe raised in a family where there was a lot of conflict, um, being in conflict with their spouse or their, the person that they're in a committed relationship with, uh, that can be kind of triggering for 'em at times.
Gordon (07:16):
And so all of those kinds of things kinda lead to why we tend to hurt those that are closest to us. Um, the other, the other thing is that, um, we, um, might, you know, again, being human, you know, when somebody makes us mad or gets us riled up about something we might want to try to get even, or make, have some sort of retribution with that. And so that's another reason why maybe sometimes we hurt those that are closest to us, but one of the things I wanna start with is really looking at what defines a healthy relationship and then kinda work backwards from that of, you know, what, what we need to look for in our relationships in order to make them healthy. The thing that really, um, and again, this I'm, I'm borrowing from the Gottman's on this and really some of their research and what they kind of discovered as they observed couples over over the years.
Gordon (08:17):
Number one is just an overall commitment to the relationship is one of the characteristics of a commit of a healthy relationship. And along with that is trust. And the Gottman came up with something called the, the sound relationship house, which is a graphic they created. And again, I'll put some links in here in the show notes. So you can take a look at that, but the two things that you have to have for any healthy relationship is a commitment to stick it out. And again, uh, that's the, the number one predictor of what makes, uh, relationship successful is both parties being willing to just stick it out with each other through good or bad. And, you know, when you think about most of us in our marriage vows, along the way, those of us that are in married or in a committed relationship, when you make those vows, usually there's something in there about, for better or for worse.
Gordon (09:18):
So folks that really buy into that and stick it out with each other, um, you know, will have a lasting relationship. Now that doesn't mean a person needs to go through a relationship that where there's some abuse going on, or there's some really bad things going on in the relationship, but just a willingness to stick it out through the tough times, goes a long way. And then also obviously trust, you know, it's really helpful to be able to trust your spouse and to be able to know that they're gonna be there for you, and that they're not gonna betray you in some way. And this is usually in my work with, with couples, uh, over the years, usually this is the reason that they're coming to see me is that, that in some way, trust has been broken. Um, and it doesn't necessarily mean there's been an affair or any, any sort of infidelity, but maybe there's some sort of emotional trust that's been broken, or maybe there is just a betrayal, either big betrayals with a small B or betrayals with a big B, uh, that go on.
Gordon (10:23):
And that, that might be that they have hurt the other one's feelings in some way, or they have been snubbed in some way, or they've been belittled or criticized in some way, all the way up to kind of the big guns where somebody's maybe had an affair, that sort of thing. So you've gotta have that trust in a relationship. You've got to know that your partner has your back and that the person that's in it with you for the long haul is there for you. The other, the other thing that makes up, uh, makes for a healthy relationship is an ability to handle conflict in the relationship. Um, obviously, you know, there are gonna be conflicts in relationship. I don't know of any, any relationship that doesn't have conflicts, but what makes for a healthy relationship is for the couple or the, to, to be able to manage those conflicts well, and then repair any damage that might be done from that conflict.
Gordon (11:29):
So, um, that that's at a, a very key component. And again, when I see couples usually that are coming to me for therapy, it's usually because they have kind of come to a roadblock block or an impase in their ability to handle conflict with each other. And then some of the things that are just kind of maybe kind of common sense over what makes for a healthy relationship is, um, obviously there, there should be in a healthy relationship, just a general sense of affection and, and love and admiration for their partner. And again, that's kind of common sense there with that one, most couples that have a healthy relationship share very similar values and life dreams with each other. In other words, they're on the same page about around that. That doesn't mean that, you know, I have had seen, um, uh, very healthy couples that might have maybe different religious or political views.
Gordon (12:30):
I've known couples that maybe come from different faith traditions and they respect that in each other and that sort of thing. But so, but they, anyway, there's a mutual respect around all of that. And part, part of it that goes into that, that mutual respect is a couple's ability to accept each other's influence on things. So in other words, to be able to know how to compromise and to be able to not necessarily do it my way all the time, but being able to be, um, take some joy and being able to do it things the way their, their partner wants to do things. The other thing is, um, that really kind of defines a healthy relationship is for both people to know what makes up the other's internal world. In other words, they really understand what makes the other person tick. They understand that internal world, what motivates them, what they're, what they're ashamed of, what they're proud of every, you know, it's kinda like there, there are in, in some ways, a way to put that is that there are really no secrets there.
Gordon (13:39):
They know, uh, both, uh, they, they know their partner well, and they love them wart and all so to speak. And, and really ultimately they treat that internal world with a great deal of kindness and compassion. Uh, and so that's a, at a very important key key component of having a relation, healthy relationship. And so what happens when things go awry, those are kind of the things that make up a healthy relationship. And again, this is based on not only the re research of John and Julie Gottman, but there's some other researchers out there. One in particular is sued Johnson, um, who is also, um, a researcher into marriage and family and marriage and, and, uh, couples and committed relationships. And I'll talk a little bit more about them here in a moment, but anyway, one of the things I tell couples when they come to see me as a therapist is, um, and I say this kind of tongue in cheek, but then again, it's kind of, uh, kind of serious in that I really could care less what they're arguing about.
Gordon (14:48):
In other words, I, you know, the topic doesn't matter to me what it is they're arguing about, but what I'm really interested in is how they argue, or in other words, the patterns of interactions. And that is where we can make a difference in our relationships when we understand how we interact with each other and how it goes down. You know, I mentioned, um, I mentioned, uh, Sue Johnson, uh, and one of the things that she mentions is is that we can, um, couples can get into what she refers to as demon dialogues. In other words, when it starts, it starts and we're on. And so the, the things spiral out of control, uh, once those kinds of things happen. And so when a couple things about repairing things, they need to start with how they interact with each other and understanding the patterns and how things go down.
Gordon (15:50):
And so a good pattern of interaction for couples is an ability, number one, to be able to self regulate. And this is where knowing yourself well comes into play. And also being brutally honest with yourself about how you might be contributing to the conflict in the relationship. Our tendency as human beings is we want to blame the other for our problems, but when we can really begin to look at ourselves after all, if you think about it, and this is a truth, is that the only person we can change is who ourself. And so being aware of that, as you go into thinking about handling conflict with your partner goes a long way. And so, as you think about how you might interact with your partner or that the, the person that you're in a relationship with is being able to really, again, ask that question, what is my part in this?
Gordon (16:51):
And what can I do to change how I am interacting with them? That's gonna help the conflict go better. And, and part of that is, again, um, as I've mentioned in previous episodes is really knowing yourself well and being mindful. Um, it involves some emotional intelligence. And what I mean by that is, is that, you know, yourself, well, you know how to regulate your own emotions. Well, in other words, if you're getting angry or getting upset or getting anxious, you know how to regulate that within yourself, it's referred to a lot of times as an internal locus of control. And so being able to, to hone that skill and hone those skills of being able to regulate yourself well, when you're upset or when you're angry, or when you're feeling anxious, or when you're feeling any of the negative emotions, being able to handle that well is gonna go a long way in helping you navigate things in your relationships.
Gordon (17:56):
Uh, particularly when there's conflict. The other thing about managing conflict and in relationships is learning how to be curious about what's going on with your partner. Um, you know, our, our tendency is to get on the defensive when there's conflict. And I'm gonna talk about in just a moment, just the typical pattern that happens in relationships, around, um, criticism and defensiveness, but being, being able to recognize when you're getting defensive of being able to kind of change the course of things at that point. So being able to say, okay, I need to take a break here, um, because I'm starting to get angry around these things. And I, I love you. And I want to be able to back off from this a little bit, so we can talk, talk about this kinda rationally or more at an even keel, because if I keep getting angry, I'm gonna not listen.
Gordon (18:51):
And that's a, another thing just as a side note here, when we get emotionally flooded with things. In other words, the anger thermometer starts going up. It really debilitates our ability to hear and listen because our amygdala, that part in our brain that is there to protect us, kind of takes over. And we go into fight or flight mode and when a couple starts to escalate and they get into that fight or flight mode, and the amygdala is taking over. There is no dialogue anymore. They are just going at each other and they're not hearing each other. And so that, that's a point at which they do need to back off from things. Now that doesn't mean they need to avoid the, the topic, but be able to self regulate, bring themselves down to a more even keel where they're not angry and then come back and talk about their problems.
Gordon (19:49):
Um, that goes a long way in being able to manage conflict. Well, the other thing about being able to manage conflict well is knowing how to repair things. And, um, that is a key feature in healthy couples. Is, is that when they do have a conflict, they maybe have a row, or they're an argument. They come back to each other and they learn how to turn towards each other, uh, after that conflict to make amends, to repair things, to kiss and make up, as they say, uh, being able to do that is a key component of having a relationship, uh, rather a healthy relationship. So let's, let's dive a little deeper end of how conflicts start and how, um, the patterns that we typically see. And again, this is based, a lot of this is based on the research of the Gottman's, you know, when the Gottman's were observing couples.
Gordon (20:50):
One of the things that they noticed is that if they saw a particular conflict pattern in the relationship, if those things were not corrected and that what they referred to this as is the, the four horsemen of the apocalypse and what those four components of that, if they saw this going on in the relationship, and if it wasn't corrected, the, the relationship was doomed to fail, and they could predict this with 90% accuracy, if a couple was gonna make it or not based on these four components of what they call the four horseman of the apocalyp of the apocalypse. And those four things are criticism, defensiveness. Another one is stonewalling, and then the fourth one is contempt. And so typically how this, how this plays out is that a couple will get into a pattern of criticism and defensiveness. And our, our tendency as human beings is, is that when we feel criticized by someone, particularly if we feel like that criticism is unjust or is not warranted, we go on the defensive.
Gordon (22:01):
And so when couples start into that pattern of criticism and defensiveness, that's when things start to spiral out of control. Um, as I mentioned earlier, Sue Johnson calls these demon dialogues when a couple starts into this, you know, somebody says something that is critical of the other, or is maybe mean-spirited, um, the other person gets defensive and it's on. And so that's when things start to spiral out of control. And so, you know, that it's criticism, if it comes out of your mouth, is you always, are you never, and this is something I point out in couples is to be aware of what you're saying to your partner really matters. It's not what we say. It's how we say it. You know, 80% of communication is nonverbal. So what's not, it's not the words that we say that matter, but it's the tone in which we use.
Gordon (23:02):
And also the body language that we use. So to, to be able to counteract, um, criticism, defensiveness, number one with criticism is a, is learning to phrase things in a way that are, make it, you're making a request of your partner rather than offering criticism. So being able to say things like, you know, when such and such happens, I really would prefer that you do blah, blah, blah. And that sounds like a weird kind of way of communicating, but rather than starting out with, well, you always, or you never, you never picked up your dirty clothes. You always leave your socks on the floor. Uh, being able to say instead, you know, it really bothers me when the socks are left on the floor. Do you mind being more mindful of picking up your socks? Totally different way to start a conversation. And then to counteract defensiveness, as I said earlier, is to approach things with curiosity, when you notice that you're getting defensive is to kind of remind yourself or be mindful of getting curious about what is going on with the other person, what is going on with your, um, with your, with your partner?
Gordon (24:16):
Um, you know, an example would be, you know, you, you kind, you kinda spoke to me kind of harshly there. What's going on that you're, you're talking to me in that way, because it, it really kind of hurt that you, you said it that way. So again, it's kind of, overcommunication in things. The other, the other parts of, of the four horsemen of the apocalypse are stonewalling. And that is when we just avoid our partner or avoid interacting with our partner. And that's, that's what the criticism and defensiveness pattern leads to if it's not corrected. And then after if the stonewalling and the criticism and the defensiveness is not changed, that leads to contempt. It leads to a couple that gets to where they just really don't like each other. They really don't want to be around each other. And the Gottman say that when a couple reaches that point, really the relationship is over at that point. And, um, it takes a lot to repair a couple when things are at the contempt level. So that's, that's something to be aware of. If you notice that you're feeling that way about your partner, I would really encourage you to get into some therapy to begin to deal with that not only individual therapy, but also couples therapy to begin to work on that.
Gordon (25:45):
Well, I know we've covered a lot here in this short episode, but just to kind of quickly recap one of the things, uh, that we need to really focus on when we think about exercising, kindness and compassion in our relationships, is to be able to be aware of the patterns of interaction. You know, couples can get into some bad habits around how they interact with each other, uh, being aware of when you're being critical of your partner and being able to, um, learn how to, when you feel criticized to be aware of not going on the defensive too quickly, because things tend to spiral outta control when, when a, when a couple starts
Gordon (26:29):
Into that
Gordon (26:29):
Pattern of criticism
Gordon (26:30):
And defensiveness.
Gordon (26:32):
And the other thing is, is to be able to allow yourself to be vulnerable with, with your partner. Um, as it mentioned already, vulnerability is the key to having a meaningful relationship, uh, of being able to let your guard down and let each other into your inner world, and then treating that inner world with kindness and compassion. Uh, that's a key, those are key components to having a healthy relationship, one that is built on kindness and compassion. And so the other, the other thing too, that I mentioned as a recap here is the importance of repairing things. When you've, when you've had a conflict, when you've gotten angry with each other or any of that sort of thing, is being able to go back and repair and make amends for the hurt that has happened. And then also, uh, continuing to build those, those lifelong commitments through shared meaning and being able to look at your life dreams and being able to, you know, think ahead in, in terms of that being a positive, uh, kind of experience for, for both people to be able to look at their life, uh, look at what their common bond is and continuing to build on that.
Gordon (27:55):
And, um, and finally, I would say if you, if you find that you're getting stuck with some of these things that I mentioned here in this episode, I would encourage you to seek out, uh, professionals, maybe to get some help with that, um, that, you know, certainly you could find, um, a licensed marriage and family therapist. And I would, I will say this when you, if you seek out therapy, find someone that, um, is trained in working with couples because that's working with couples is different than working with individuals. And I think it's important to have someone that will, uh, knows what they're doing just around, uh, their training and that sort of thing. Um, also I mentioned in this episode, the resources, again, those links will be here in the show notes and the show summary and, um, to the Gottman Institute, and then also some resources from Dr. Sue Johnson that I mentioned in here as well. So hopefully you find this helpful and, um, hope good luck with your relationships and, uh, do treat each other with greater kindness and compassion.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Dawn Gabriel | Finding Deeper Meaning and Redemption Through Soul Care | K&C 14


In this episode Dawn Gabriel, LPC joins Gordon for a deep dive into redemption and finding your soul through spirituality, the divine, or the universe. Dawn, a licensed professional counselor and the person behind the Faith Fringes Podcast, opens the show by being vulnerable and speaking about the divorce she experienced at the age of twenty-five. Then, she explains how the divorce changed her relationship with faith and God. Tune in as we chat about the importance of finding a sense of purpose on your journey, the problem with short-term pleasure, and how to express meaning within our lives.

Meet Dawn Gabriel

Dawn Gabriel, LPC

Dawn Gabriel is the founder and CEO of Authentic Connections Counseling Center and host of Faith Fringes podcast.

Dawn creates engaging space for fellow clinicians and healers to look deeper into their spirituality and faith. She has about 20 years of diverse experience in the clinical mental health world and currently focuses on helping therapists engage their spirituality in new ways in order to cultivate a deeper and authentic connection with God. Dawn hosts Soul Care Retreats that are exclusively for therapists as she believes that we need our own sacred place to slow down and let go of all that we hold in order to continue our transformative work with others.

Dawn is a chai and wine connoisseur, a hiking trail enthusiast, a wife, and mom of two boys who all love living and adventuring in Colorado.

Free Giveaway – Spiritual Reflections Course – https://faithfringes.com/spiritual-reflections-course/
FREE 8 week email course to engage more of your own faith journey from a different perspective. Included is a journaling workbook to guide you through exercises that will help you explore what you were brought up to believe, including disillusion and hurt, while also cultivating a deeper and authentic connection with God.

Dawn’s Divorce and A Story of Redemption

Dawn went through a divorce at the age of twenty-five. She lived in a conservative culture where you don’t get a divorce, no matter what. Well, Dawn found out that her husband cheated on her. Unfortunately, Dawn did not get positive support from her church on her journey. It was the antithesis of kindness and compassion. Now, Dawn has been remarried for thirteen years; it has been her story of redemption. Something that has helped Dawn on her journey is a particular book; she recommends reading The Relentless Tenderness of Jesus by Brennan Manning.

How You Can Connect and Communicate With God

Growing up, Dawn was conservative. The churches she went to taught a lot about following the rules rather than speaking about what your relationship should look like with God. When Dawn got a divorce, she thought she was committing the biggest sin. She believed God would be condemning her during one of the worst pains of Dawn’s life. Eventually, Dawn realized she shouldn’t be thinking about what she could do for God. Instead, Dawn started to focus on how she could connect with God. Overall, think about where you find peace when communicating with God.

Ways To Find Faith In Your Daily Life

There tends to be a deeper place within our souls. Whether you have a traditional faith or not, there’s still this element that you have to ground in something bigger than yourself. The way you are doing life may not be working anymore, and you may crave something more profound. If you are on a journey of self-awareness, you may want to find faith in spirituality, the divine, or the universe. When we don’t have meaningful things in our lives, we will quickly substitute with pleasure. Things that provide us pleasure are usually short-lived and hollow. All in all, there is something bigger than ourselves, and it’s time to connect with that.

Creating A Sense of Purpose To Give Us Deeper Meaning

We should have a more profound sense of purpose and meaning, they are basic human needs. Sometimes we don’t find that more profound sense of purpose until we meet our other basic human needs. However, it’s still critical to wrestling with your sense of purpose. If you don’t find meaning, you may try and fill that void in other ways. Those other ways will not be as fulfilling as finding your purpose. We need to find ways to express meaning through kindness and compassion. That way, we can discover life-long peace, forgiveness, and purpose.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Whitney Owens | The Challenge of Caring | K&C 13


In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with Whitney Owens about being a caregiver and living into kindness and compassion through those challenges.  Whitney opens the show by talking about the book, Discernment: Reading the Signs of Daily Life by Henri J. M. Nouwen. Whitney reveals the most significant lesson she learned from that book and how it has informed her life as a mother. Then, Whitney dives straight into the importance of self-care and how it’s an essential piece of kindness and compassion. Tune in as we chat about savoring the moment, mindfulness, and creating consistent daily habits around self-care.

Meet Whitney Owens

Whitney Owens, LPC

Whitney Owens is a licensed professional counselor, group practice owner, and faith-based private practice consultant. She is located in Savannah, Georgia, where she manages a private pay group practice with 10 plus clinicians. Along with running her practice, she consults practice owners around the country on how to start and grow a successful faith-based practice. She has spoken at numerous events such as both the Georgia and Maryland annual professional counselors conference as well as trainings for Florida’s Counseling Association.

In addition to practice consulting, Whitney is an Enneagram enthusiast and offers workshops to business owners on using the Enneagram to help run their practice. In her free time, Whitney enjoys spending time with her husband and two girls, running, reading, and relaxing in the backyard.

To find out more about Whitney, visit her website: whitneyowens.com.  Or you can visit Whitney’s practice website:  https://watersedgecounseling.com/

How You Will Learn More About Who You Really Are

Whitney recommends reading the book Discernment: Reading the Signs of Daily Life. Spiritual leader and counselor Henri J. M. Nouwen wrote about the essential question asked by every Christian and seeker: What should I do with my life? Nouwen was a successful professor and writer. He left it all behind to care for people who have nothing; that’s where he learned everything about himself. This is the definition of kindness and compassion. Unfortunately, this is where Whitney struggles. Whitney can accomplish all these things professionally and personally. However, what is she doing if she can’t be available to her daughter?

The Importance of Support When It Comes To Self-Care

It’s really easy to get down on yourself. You will make mistakes and do the best you can; that’s all you can give. Whitney says it’s essential to reach out to other people and ask for help. For instance, Whitney was reluctant to accept help from others when it came to taking care of her child. You have to learn how to trust other people, or you’re going to wear yourself out. It takes a village to raise a child, so remember to find other people and asking for help. Support is the most significant self-care gift that you can receive. To maintain self-care, you have to be able to take a step back when you need to.

Savor The Moment As Part of Your Mindfulness Routine

Another thing that helps Whitney on her journey is mindfulness. We need to be mindful of the moment we have with our loved ones. Whitney’s little girl loves to snuggle. Find special moments with your loved ones; it’s imperative. Love is when we take moments, sit in them, and enjoy them. For instance, sometimes, Whitney has to be up in the middle of the night to get her daughter back to sleep. Instead of feeling irritated that she’s awake in the middle of the night, Whitney will savor the moment; she knows these precious times will not last forever.

Create Daily Habits Around Self-Care & Be Consistent

Find things you can do for yourself, like hobbies or exercise. It should be something that you’re excited and happy to do. For example, Whitney loves to run, so she sets aside time each day to get out and run. Find small things that you can be consistent about. It should be something that you do for yourself. We all need to create daily rituals for ourselves to keep ourselves grounded. Movement is a way to clear your head, meditate, and pray. Sometimes you’ll get your best ideas through movement. Overall, ensure you are consistent when it comes to your self-care habits.

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L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Jessica Tappana | When Life Gets Heavy… | K&C 12


In this episode, Gordon talks with Jessica Tappana, LCSW about what we can do when faced with hard and heavy things in life. Jessica opens the show by speaking about how spring can be a heavy time for many of us. In general, the world needs more kindness and compassion; however, we only have so much energy in the day. We can choose to be upset about something or find ways to be compassionate about them. Then, Jessica dives into her passion for DBT and how it has helped Jessica learn more about mindfulness. Tune in as we chat about texting gratitude to others, avoiding negativity bias, and teaching our children about kindness.

Meet Jessica Tappana

Jessica Tappana is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker who works with teens and adults from all walks of life who have been through something that feels overwhelming. Her goal is to help people stop dwelling on negative thoughts and start helping them get back to living life.

“I received a bachelor degree in Social Work from the University of Missouri and then spent a couple of years gaining experience in the field of mental health. I returned to school and earned my Masters of Social Work from the University of New England with a clinical focus in 2012. My mental health experience has ranged from working at Fulton State Hospital to a school with students who had significant emotional and behavioral needs. Everywhere I have worked, I have brought a focus on evidence based counseling practices and a commitment to helping people face and overcome the greatest stressors of their lives.”

You can find Jessica at:  aspirecounselingmo.com/jessica-tappana-msw-lcsw

Find Ways To Look At Situations With Compassion

There’s so much heaviness in the world. When spring comes around, many of us can feel it. People are tired people, and everyone has gone through this rough winter. It’s so easy to focus on that heaviness. We talk about self-care all the time; we’re all doing our best—the world in general needs more kindness and compassion. We only have so much emotional and mental energy in the day. There are many things you can choose to be upset about. Instead, you need to find ways to look at situations with as much compassion as possible.

How DBT Helps With Mindfulness and Re-Centering

DBT stands for dialectical behavior therapy, which was developed in 1993. When Jessica was first introduced to the practice, she was amazed. DBT helped Jessica learn about living in the moment and mindfulness. Plus, DBT is excellent for looking at and normalizing having big feelings. We all have triggers in our lives that will make us feel stressed. DBT is all about having those big feelings and coming back to mindfulness, deep breathing, and re-centering.

Texting Gratitude To Others & Sending Kindness Into The World

Jessica had a client with suicidal thoughts. These thoughts are much more common than we acknowledge or talk about. When the client had suicidal thoughts, they decided to text three people. The client would send texts about gratitude. Then, they would get lovely messages in return. If Jessica has a bad day, she will send something kind to another person. We tend to get focused on what we need from other people. Well, there is something to say about sending kindness into the world.

Ways To Stop Dwelling On Your Negative Thinking

We have a negativity bias. If twenty good things happen throughout the day and one bad thing, our brain tends to focus on the bad thing. Focusing on kindness and compassion will remind our brains that positive people are in our lives. If we can bring joy to others, it could completely change their day. You have no way of knowing how other people are feeling. Plus, being kind to other people will help your brain focus on something positive. Overall, express gratitude for bringing you out of your negativity.

Teaching Your Children About Kindness and Compassion

Kindness is one of Jessica’s core values. As Jessica raises children, she thinks about how to raise kind children. She always asks her children what they did today that was kind. Yes, it matters that they are doing well in school. However, Jessica wants her children to be kind and decent human beings at the end of the day. All of Jessica’s family members talk about what kind things they did today. Unfortunately, our brains can focus on negativity far too often. So, thinking about being kind and talking about kindness will help us focus on positivity and compassion.

Conclusion

Ultimately kindness is an intentional act.  And we can live into kindness by being more self-aware and mindful about our own triggers to things.   By being positive and looking for the good in things, we can call live into a life treats ourselves and others with kindness and compassion.

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Gordon (00:00):
Hello, everyone. And welcome again to the kindness and compassion podcast. And I'm, I'm so happy for you to get to know one of my good friends, one of my dear friends, Jessica Tepa and Jessica is another therapist and she is based in Missouri. So welcome Jessica to the podcast.
Jessica (00:19):
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and, um, I love what you're doing and just excited to be part of it.
Gordon (00:27):
Yes, yes. Thanks. And you know, when I, as I've said in previous episodes, I, you know, as I was conceptualizing putting this podcast together, Jessica was kind of on the front end of that and just, uh, Jessica and I are in a mastermind group together and I was sharing with them, their idea, and I got a lot of encouragement from her and the other members of, of the group, uh, to move forward with this. So Jessica's kind of been part of this to some degree on the, from the beginning stages, but, um, Jessica tell folks a little more about you and what you do. And, uh, then we'll jump into just talking about some of the things we were thinking about before we started recording.
Jessica (01:13):
Yeah. Um, I wear a lot of different hats. I am a, um, therapist, as you said, I own a group practice with about, uh, 10 clinicians now in Missouri. And, um, I have been doing that for, well, my daughter turns five next week and I hope it kind of on my mater leave, did a lot of the groundwork for it, with her. And so about five years, I also have another business where we help therapists around the country get their websites. So they show up on Google. And then, um, I would say my most important roles probably are that of mother and wife, um, at home.
Gordon (01:50):
Yes. Yes. It's, uh, I know that I get, uh, I'm privileged to get, to hear a lot of good family stories from Jessica and what's going on with their kids and that sort of thing. But you know, one of the things we were talking about is we, um, got ready to record today is just, um, as we're recording this where there's a lot of heaviness in the world, um, we're dealing with, um, the invasion of Ukraine from Russia. Um, that's on the front of burner. I think we're kind of moving out of the COVID pandemic to some degree. Um, you know, there's still pockets of it. And I know you guys were hit particularly hard there in Missouri with just a lot of people, not being vaccinated and, and all of that sort of thing. And then just, um, day to day life. Um, and so Jessica, as you, as you thought about this today, and I, I know you said there was something happening, happening there locally for you guys. So what's, what's been on your mind just around this topic.
Jessica (02:55):
Yeah, it does feel like there's so much heaviness in the world. And for some reason I feel like most Springs, we feel it in our practice, the therapists all are just saying like, we're just like, people are tired. People have gone through this, you know, rough winter, every winter feels rough. I think in its own way. I know we're getting snow again in a couple of days here, even though it's, you know, supposed to be nicer weather, that's just Missouri weather for you. Mm-hmm . Um, and so it feels like there's always this heaviness, but now, you know, yes. With, with COVID think goodness, our numbers are the best they've been in ages and are good. Um, but, but people have lost and people have had sickness and people have had all these changes to their life. And then with the things in Ukraine and yeah, there, there was an accident very near my house this morning that, um, you just think about all these, all these people affected by all of these things and, and there, and there is a heaviness and it's so easy to focus on that heaviness.
Jessica (03:52):
It really is. We see it with, um, with clients. We see it with even us as therapists who, you know, mm-hmm, , hopefully we all PR we talk about self-care all the time. We're all doing our best we can to, to practice self-care. Um, I see it with my children when I pick them up from school, they talk about, you know, the roughest parts of their day. And so, um, so yeah, I think the across the board, the world's needing a little bit more kindness. We need to be compassionate with, with how we hold each other. Um, I know, you know, I think I, my husband and I approach like road rage very differently. we we'll be, we'll be driving, you know, across the state to visit my sister and somebody will be driving very erratically and unsafely and he's, and he'll, you know, have some choice words because that's very annoying.
Jessica (04:36):
And my response is, well for all, you know, they just found out that their loved one is in the hospital, potentially not going to make it through the day. And they're going to say goodbye. And it, it, it's kind of this thing where he is like, oh, oh, what can I say to that? Where we have this, this interaction between us, where I'm like, yes, we can get super dysregulated about the person that cut us off, because that is really frustrating at the same time. I'm like I only have so much emotional and mental energy in a day. And there's so much that I can choose to be upset about or not choose just because it's that big that it's going to affect me. That I'm like, if we, I, I often feel like I almost need, it's not one. I almost need to like, find those ways to view situations as compassionately as I can and look for the, and even though, you know, chances are in that situation and like the, the bad driver I'm probably completely wrong and he probably is just a jerk, but I'm never gonna see him again. And so if I can let go of my negative emotion by assuming the best about him, then, um, for me and my own personal distress, it goes down.
Gordon (05:39):
Yes, yes. And I know, I know for you, Jessica, part of your specialty is working with folks. You use the term emotionally dysregulated. And so, uh, for folks that might not be therapists and all of that sort of thing, you wanna talk about maybe a little bit about what that looks like, because I think this, this really leads into, as folks have heard on this podcast previously, just thinking about, um, mindfulness and being able to manage our own emotions well is important. So talk a little bit more about kind of the work you do as far as your specialty and that sort of thing.
Jessica (06:19):
Yeah. So I like to say I was D B T born and raised as a therapist. So DBT stands for dialectical behavior therapy, which was, uh, developed in 1993 to work with, uh, or the book the main book was published, um, then, um, by Marshall and Ahan and was developed for people with really extreme emotions, really big feelings. I like to think of it. And mm-hmm, , you know, for research purposes, she had to put some labels on. So she started it looking at people who were chronically suicidal, who thought about, um, taking measures to in their life prematurely or who had chronic self harm or what we call borderline personality disorder. Um, but when I was first introduced to this back in 2008,
Jessica (07:03):
Um, I was amazed. I was like, these are like, it, it taught mindfulness. And I'm like, this is a fantastic thing. I didn't know all of my anxiety wasn't related to, you know, wasn't related to this. And so even I started, you know, using these pieces components of what I learned professionally to help, to help live in the moment to help use, to use skills and how I went about my day. And so, um, so I think that everything I learned there, um, what I learned is we all have some level of emotional dysregulation or big, big responses to feelings or big swings in our mood. We all handle them differently. Um, but really I think that these approaches, these ways of looking and normalizing, having big feelings applies to all of us. And so much of my career was spent working with people who did chronically self harm, or that maybe had, um, had behave, you know, had such strong emotions that it came out as aggression or these kinds of really extreme behaviors.
Jessica (07:59):
Um, and as I've gone through my career, I've worked then with people with maybe less obvious emotion, emotion, emotional dysregulation mm-hmm . But what I found is that, um, that we all have it to some degree, we all have these things, these triggers in our life that cause us to feel much more distressed than they may make someone else next to us feel, um, or maybe more of an emotional response than we want to or think we quote unquote should have. Um, and so by when I talked about emotional dysregulation, yes, I could mean, you know, those really big things that lead someone to aggression, but it also could just be, you know, this morning, um, I saw that, you know, I was notified that there was a crash. I don't know who it was, probably nobody I know, but I had this big response personally of like, that was triggering for me. I became dysregulated and had to do some mindfulness, some deep breathing and kind of reentering that mm-hmm um, that, yeah. You know, get myself back to my wise mind back to my center so that I could, um, go about my day and be less impacted.
Gordon (08:59):
Yes. Yes. And I think it, you, you know, one of the things about that is, is that, um, when I think about just any of us being emotionally dysregulated or in any sort of emotional distress, we come, we become very self focused and it's like, our world just gets really small at that point. So Jessica, you were sharing with me earlier, a story just about working with a, a client that was just really struggling with suicidal thoughts and, and that sort of thing. And being able to incorporate some kindness and compassion kind of practices with them really made kind of a difference for them. You don't wanna say more? Tell, tell us more about that or tell us that story rather.
Jessica (09:45):
Yeah, I think it was a huge turning point. So I had a client once who had a history of having these, um, suicidal thoughts, these thoughts about, you know, is life really worth living and all the things that come after that, which by the way, um, for anybody out there who kind of, hasn't given a thought, I think that those thoughts are much more common than we as a society often acknowledge or talk about. I think that, that, that, that many, many, many people have those have those moments, but this client had had maybe more of those moments or more intense than a lot of people. And, um, and the loved ones in their life. Hadn't always really known how to respond or hadn't responded in a way that felt very helpful. And so we, um, with most of my clients, again, I think this stuff is very common that people have these moments.
Jessica (10:30):
I'm always talking about, what's your plan gonna be? How are you going to, how are you going to handle it when these thoughts do pop up? And so this client came up with this idea that they would text three people each time they had these intense thoughts. And, um, instead of saying, I need help or what I need from them, they did that outer focus. And instead it said, I appreciate this about you. Thank you for helping you with this yesterday. You, I hope you know, how amazing you are in X, Y, Z way. And what they found is, you know, not everybody responded, not everybody responded quickly. It didn't always, but they immediately felt like they had done something to help other people that was good for them. And the really incredible thing was often the response. Eventually whenever somebody checked their messages was a nice message back.
Jessica (11:17):
That was, they, you know, the kindness that they received just by trying to spread kindness to the world in their own moment of distress, mm-hmm was empowering. And I so often think about that and I've shared that and how other clients do it. Um, and even, I, you know, if I've had a bad day been like, I'm gonna follow my client's examples, they're genius, mm-hmm , and we'll send, you know, just a kind word out to another person, because like you said, we have this tendency to get very focused on, on what we need. And sometimes we even look to other people for that validation and, and it's great when we can find it. But, um, but there's something to be said for, for sending kindness into the world, in our own, in our own moments that can often that kindness can often multiply in how it returns. And I think, um, I don't know. I was, I thought that was such a great idea, but it was such a different approach and such an effective approach to changing their own mood and getting the support they needed, um, in a little bit different way.
Gordon (12:14):
Right, right. Yeah. I think it's, uh, it's, it's absolutely. Um, one, one to me, one of the core practices of kindness and compassion is, is gratitude of being able to look at what you have rather than you don't have. And then I think what, in, in this example of being able to show gratitude to others, um, it, it is just a kind and compassionate thing to do, and that it has this, this ability to allow us to connect and also be more, um, more, again, to same, same words, kind of grounded in the present, as opposed to getting totally inwardly focused and, and bogged down into something that has a lot of anxiety with it, or a lot of depression with it. And all of that sort of thing, which at least in my view, when we get into a state of depression, we are really very past focused and with anxiety we're very future focused. And so being able to stay grounded in the present is, um, is a much better place to be and much more manageable.
Jessica (13:28):
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that, um, that we have this negativity bias. We have this tendency to focus on, you know, 20 good things happening today, but one bad thing happens. Our brain will latch onto that bad thing and ruminate about it. And so when we're focused on being kind and compassionate and supporting other people and expressing our gratitude, it's this, it's, it's also just a reminder to our brains that like there are positive people in our life. There are things that we, that, that bring us joy. And, um, and you know, if we can bring that joy to somebody else, if you're sending out these nice kind messages, you don't know what somebody else is going through, you don't know if they might be having the same heaviness and you have no way of knowing that. And so you're one little bright spot in kindness that you throw out there may turn their day around, but even if it doesn't even if they never respond to you, it has helped your brain refocus on something positive and notice that there is that there are good things out there and that you can contribute in a positive way to the, to, to the world by saying thank you by expressing that you care by, um, by showing that gratitude.
Jessica (14:36):
And I think that, um, if it can bring you out of the swirling thoughts about whether it's the pastor or the future, and instead get you in this moment here right now, what are you grateful for? What, what, um, what connections do you have with other human beings? I think that that can be just incredibly powerful for turning a rough moment around.
Gordon (14:56):
Yeah, because I think as, as we've all experienced over the last two years with having to be isolated because of COVID, it gets very lonely. And I think that is, um, one, one thing, maybe one silver, silver lining to the whole COVID pandemic is, is that it, it allowed people kind of permission if, if you will, to be able to express kind of the mental health struggles that they've had. And that it's, it was okay to do that because we all have experienced at, at different levels over the last couple of years.
Jessica (15:36):
Yeah. In, in a way it was like this thing that we're all in together. And I know that it cause a lot of divisiveness and different ways and stuff too, but, but it was this, this thing that we're in together. And hopefully we, as a society are moving more towards talking more openly about mental health and acknowledging that, that everybody, um, that everybody, I think, struggles at different points and maybe some of us in very different ways from one another. But, um, but, but mental health is, you know, just like physical health. We all have ailments and, um, mm-hmm and sometimes they need more to treat 'em than others, but, um, right.
Gordon (16:12):
It's real. Yeah, it is. So, uh, another thing you were sharing with me before we started recording was just, uh, kind of a practice that you and your kids and your family have been doing around kindness. You wanna say, talk about that.
Jessica (16:27):
Yeah. So with kindness being kind of one of my own core values, I mean, I'm, I maybe take it, you know, um, I, I just, I want, I, I want it out there in the world as I raise children. That's something that I think about and how do you raise kind kind children. And sometimes it's talking to people like you that have some Sage advice and some ideas and some tips that, that you've done. But one thought that I had a couple weeks ago, I was just sitting there. My son, there were some things that we talked about that like, he could have done differently at school that we wish he'd maybe done differently at school mm-hmm . And, and he, I just saw his little face and it was just, he, you know, he wants to do his best. He's trying, he's eight, he's human.
Jessica (17:10):
And, and I just saw that heaviness in his face. And so I just looked at him, I'm like, okay, here's what I wanna now, what did you do today? That was kind. And he goes, oh, I don't know. I just sat there for a minute. And he goes, oh, well, I did this. I helped this friend with this thing. And I, and it was like this, this moment. And again, this click of him thinking about ways that he was kind, he suddenly realized that he had contributed something positive to the world that day, too. Um, and often, you know, I ask about how he does in school and all these other things. And they matter, I, I want him to do well in school. I want him to follow all the rules, but at the end of the day, what I really want is for him to be a kind decent human being, who, um, who has some sense of self in the world.
Jessica (17:55):
Mm-hmm , and that's what that, that, that's what that did. And so we went around the table and we asked every member of our family to share what was something kind. They did that day. And then often, often that leads onto the conversation about what kindness other people have done for us, but it's been, um, it's become our new tradition now for several weeks. And one night I was distracted or stressed or some, I don't know. I didn't ask the question in my four year old daughter looks at me, she's like, mommy, are you gonna ask us the kind thing
Jessica (18:25):
Loved it? Like that that's become our new dinner tradition. My dad always asked us growing up, what was the highlight of our day? Yes. And that was, again, it accomplished the same thing of getting us to focus on what was the best part. And so I love that question. What, what is the highlight of your day? And I think this is like, my version of it is like, what was something kind? What was something you did? And, and, you know, you put out in the world to help build us each up and by golly, I think about before I sit down to dinner, what I'm gonna say now, cuz I'm not getting away without answering the question myself.
Gordon (18:57):
Right, right. Again, I think, you know, it kind of comes kind of fur full circus back a circle back to, um, just thinking about gratitude practices of really finding, figuring out what's going, right. Whether rather than looking at what's going wrong in really being kind of a, a positive, more of a positive influence with people and our family and our kids and that sort of thing, because it, it is, we've got, we do have, as you mentioned, this negativity bias that's built in and it, and I think it, you know, physiologically, it comes from that survival instinct. That's kind of hardwired into our amygdala of, of looking for what is wrong or looking for danger. And I think we can, when we, when we focus in on that too much, that aspect, um, it really help, it really prevents us from having the opportunity to find more kindness and compassion. Cause if we're looking for danger all the time, that's a different state of being a different state of being, uh, of, of looking at the world.
Jessica (20:11):
Yeah. And, and as a recovering perfectionist , I will say that, you know, there are a lot of times where I like the negativity bias. I like that. I am able to see the things that need perfecting in myself. You know, that it's not inherently bad and it's not inherently bad that I can see the potential dangers in the world and, and respond to them. So this is something that, you know, has evolved through, you know, that, that is part of our biology for a reason. Cause it can save us mm-hmm but it does. It, it, this thing that helps us in some areas of our life hurts us so much. Mm-hmm in our mental health and in our relationships, um, it, it really can, and we've gotta find ways, I think sometimes to slow down and, and retrain our brain to not just, I don't wanna say like sometimes it's almost obsessive the way that it thinks latches on and just yes.
Jessica (21:03):
Holds on to that negative when there is so much positive in the world and, and for every one person that's a jerk to you. There are probably three people that are nice to you in really small ways. It's just, it might be something like the person who hands you, your coffee telling you, they hope they ha that you have a nice day, you know, might not be the big, the, the big flashy things. Um, but yeah, I think we can find these little ways in our life to focus on the gratitude we have for the, for the kindness we receive and looking for the little ways that we can build our own, um, sense of self our own, um, our own self-confidence even mm-hmm by, by being kind to other people. I think that, um, I think that if we can find the ways to be kind and to, and to put good out into the world, it can, it can help us by, you know, more than more than we ever dreamed of.
Jessica (21:57):
I think I've seen that with asking this question of my kids. I've gotta say, I learned so much about their friends by asking my kids what they did kind, um, that day I've learned that, uh, I've learned who of their friends needs comforting. Sometimes I've learned who of their friends comfort comforts them. Um, but it's been fun to see how, like, I know my daughter said, you know, there was one friend that was sad and on the playground. And so she went over and gave them a hug and asked if they needed a teacher. And like that friend I've noticed gradually over the last couple weeks, she's playing more with. And so here she had, you know, invested in helping someone else and out of it, she's gotten a closer friendship that yeah. Um, that she clearly values. And I'm like how often in the world is that the way it works? That, yeah, not, not, not saying, not saying people are always nice to you when you're nice to them. I wish that was the case. But I do think if we can, if we can get ourselves unstuck from focusing on the negative sometimes, um, yeah. Big things can happen.
Gordon (22:53):
Yeah. I totally totally agree. And I think it's, uh, something you said, uh, little little bit earlier, you know, just about how, how to retrain our brains. I think it really does take some intentional work in that we do have to be focused on thinking about the world in a different way because, um, you know, I think that's where really where, where change comes is, is that we get a new perspective in being able to see the world in a different way. I have, I have in my office, um, with, um, the work I do with clients and folks have, might have seen this. It's, uh, it's an optical illusion where you it's a picture of a woman, but it's, if you look at it one way, it's a young woman and you look at it another way. It's an old woman. And what I do with that a lot of times is in working with couples is I'll hold the picture up.
Gordon (23:48):
And I say, okay, what do you see an old woman or a young woman? And what I love is when they see different, the different things. And, and so then I work with 'em okay, let me help you see the old woman, if you're seeing the young woman or help you see the old, uh, the, the young woman, if you see the old woman first. And it's like, when you, when they, when it, you know, becomes clear, oh, that's it kind of thing. Um, my whole point in doing that exercise is that that a lot of times we get so focused in, on the way we see the world or the way we're seeing things is that we miss a whole other possibility of seeing things. And it's that the truth of the matter is that picture is not a picture of either or, but it's both a, and so being able to see kind of both perspectives is, is really neat. So yeah, as, as people know, I love metaphors, so I, that's one of the things that kind of stuck out for me. So yeah. So actually, Yeah, go, go ahead, Jessica, what were you gonna say?
Jessica (24:56):
Or I was just thinking, it reminded me of another metaphor I like to use similar, like with how hard it can be to switch that perspective. I like to think of like, if I have a path through woods that I've gone 20,000 times down, and now I'm trying to find this new path that leads to somewhere better, maybe a lake that at first it's really thick. And the first time I go through it, I might, you know, like I have to stop, you know, out some leaves or whatever to clear a new path. Um, but that it's there. I'm gonna meet some resistance from nature to get to this better place. And so similarly, like in our brains, we it's created clear paths to this negative thinking to focusing on the negative. And when we're stressed, like our brain goes the path of least resistance, which is straight to that desperation to that negativity.
Jessica (25:40):
And if we wanna go to this new place of focusing on gratitude, it's kind of like recreating a new path mm-hmm and our brain is still gonna be like, but the path of least resistance is going to the negative. And so you have to over and over again, purposefully, turn your brain, turn your mind to this new way of thinking. Mm-hmm this new perspective. Um, and it's gonna be hard and it's gonna be to get that new path to be more well worn, more automatic for you. It, it takes time, but, but it's doable. It just, yeah.
Gordon (26:10):
Yeah. I love, I love that metaphor. That's a, that's a great one, cuz I love to hike and it's uh, you know, creating new paths in our brain is the same, same thing, the new pathways in our brain. And that's a great metaphor, you know, it's gonna be tough at first, but once you start practicing it and going that way with it, a path really begins gets to be much easier. So I love that. So well, Jessica, what I, I wanna be respectful of our time and tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they wanna connect with you or, um, learn more about you.
Jessica (26:48):
Yeah. Um, the probably the fastest way is email. I love email. I tend to write long ones though in response mm-hmm so anybody would be, uh, welcome to email me at Jessica at aspire, a S P I E counseling Mo Mo for missouri.com.
Gordon (27:04):
All right. And we'll have links in the show summary and show notes for you to connect with Jessica. Well, Jessica, so glad you joined me for this podcast. Um, Jessica's been on my other podcast a few other times, uh, and it's more business related, but, uh, Jessica I'll be seeing you here soon. I'm sure,
Jessica (27:23):
Absolutely. Thank you for having me on.
Gordon (27:25):
Yes.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Katelyn Printz | When We Change Our Mind About Things | K&C 11


In this episode, Katelyn Printz joins us to talk about the process she went through in changing her mind about some things. Katelyn shares her story about growing up with some fairly narrow conservative Christian views.  As an undergraduate in college, Katlyn’s eyes were opened up to various ways of thinking, allowing her to reconsider some of the opinions she had as a child. Katelyn speaks about the importance of allowing your faith to be a continuous process as you grow and learn. Tune in as we chat about the many ways to love and worship and why it’s critical to have kindness and compassion for yourself and others as they make changes to their faith and beliefs. 

Meet Katelyn Printz

Katelyn Printz
Katelyn Printz

Katelyn is a middle school teacher who has spent the past 5 years teaching science and Bible/Theology classes. She grew up in and attended seminary in a very conservation denomination that did not look fondly on her wrestling with big questions around racism, LGBTQ theology, women in leadership, ect. This led to many months of study and deconstruction of old beliefs. Her process eventually brought her to the Episcopal Church. Leaving her childhood church community has resulted in many difficult conversations with family and friends who disagree with where she has landed. The process of reckoning with hard questions and being pressed towards hard conversations has pushed her to spend lots of time thinking about how to disagree with compassion and kindness.  Katelyn lives in Kingsport, TN with her old rescue dog, Buddy. 

Rethinking Conservative Christian Views

Katelyn grew up in a very conservative Christian denomination; views were narrow in what was permissible or not permissible. She found a lot of safety knowing where the boundary lines were for right and wrong. However, Katlyn was always curious and had a lot of questions about her ethics and morals. However, she was afraid to be as straightforward about all her questions. Katlyn went to a Christian university, where she was exposed to liturgical-style things for the first time. At university, Katlyn realized that there are Christian people who think differently than the minimal perspective that she grew up with. 

Permitting Yourself To Be Patient When It Comes To Faith

Before Katelyn has a conversation with someone else, she has had to learn how to permit herself not to understand something fully. She permits herself to wrestle with her thoughts and allows faith to be a continuous process. You don’t need to have airtight boxes when it comes to faith; this can be a challenging idea to understand. Many people struggle to give themselves grace and compassion. Remember to be patient with yourself as you read and learn. It can be exhausting to undo the beliefs that you have held since childhood. Overall, give yourself permission to have a conversation and say, “I don’t know.” 

There Are Many Ways To Love and Worship God

Katelyn was working at a bush hospital in Kenya during college. She enjoyed watching people love and worship God in a way that was just very different from her own. At a Kenyan church, there is a lot of exuberant, joyful dancing. Plus, there is a lot more openness to the supernatural. The activity of angelic or demonic forces is just more prominent in Kenya versus the United States. Watching other people worship with such explosive joy was very beautiful, especially when compared to a formal religious ceremony in America.

Working on Kindness and Compassion With Yourself and With Others 

Katelyn is working on showing herself kindness and compassion. There are still a lot of aspects of her theology that she is rethinking. Have compassion for yourself; you don’t need everything figured out. Plus, you don’t need to act like you know exactly what you’re doing. Also, Katelyn makes sure to have kindness and compassion for the people around her. Find the humanity in every person. It’s critical to be kind about accepting change and how slow or fast others are willing to change. Lastly, Katelyn knows when to pull back. If she has an unhealthy conversation, she knows when to stop engaging. 

Conclusion

Ultimately, kindness and compassion comes to fruition by being curious about people.  As Katelyn points out, when we allow ourselves to get curious rather than defensive, we can have a discourse that is based on compassion.  We might not always agree with another’s point of view, but we can still be curious.  And you never know… it might just lead to changing you mind about some things…

 

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Gordon (00:00):
Hello, everyone. And welcome again to the podcast. And I'm so glad for you to get to know Caitlin prince Caitlin. Welcome to the podcast.
Katelyn (00:08):
Thank you. B, I'm really excited to be here.
Gordon (00:11):
Yes, yes. And I've gotten to know Caitlin over the last few years, really again, through, through my church context and just conversations we've had about theology and just, um, a lot of the different changes in life that come along and in getting to know Caitlin, I know that she's been on this pretty fascinating journey just with changing her mind about things and changing kind of her view of things, particularly theological, but, um, Caitlin welcome and tell, tell folks a little bit more about yourself and how you've landed, where you've landed.
Katelyn (00:50):
Okay. Well, I grew up in a very conservative, um, Christian denomination, um, very, I guess, narrow in what was viewed as, um, permissible or not permissible. And I just soaked it all up. I think I was a little, um, I rule follower and I found a lot of safety in knowing where the boundary lines were and what was right and what was wrong or what I thought was right and wrong. Mm-hmm, based on how it was taught to me. And so I think in my early years, the very black and white way of looking at things really, um, fit the way my brain was wired. Mm-hmm
Gordon (01:39):

Katelyn (01:40):
And, but I've also always been very curious. And so I had a lot of questions and there were aspects of the black and white contrast, I think, to sing right versus wrong, or, um, complicating questions about God that I think have always bothered me and also made me feel a little on the fringes, I suppose, of that, um, church community, um, because my questions maybe introduced, uh, doubt or uncertainty about the strength of my faith. And so I was very curious, but afraid to be as straightforward about all the questions that I had, um, as maybe I, I could have been, I, um, went to a Christian university where I was actually exposed to, uh, liturgical style things for the first time. And that's where I was first introduced to some authors that I now spent more time with. like held Evans and Peter ends and stuff like that.
Katelyn (02:48):
And that started, uh, helping me realize that there are beautiful Christian people who think differently than the very, um, limited perspective. I guess I had known up to that point. I really loved theology and I wanted to do something in the field of theology, but my church upbringing top that women could not be ordained or hold any kind of position of leadership. And so after I finished college, I did go to seminary, but not with the ordained. I just wanted to learn and study more, um, and maybe be involved in a church in some capacity. But at that time I didn't believe that, uh, being ordained was something that was possible for me. Mm-hmm
Gordon (03:41):
were, what were some of the things maybe that, um, through your readings and education that really kind of caused to begin to change your mind or get curious?
Katelyn (03:58):
Hmm. Um, to be honest, it started with beliefs around, um, racism and white privilege. So even when I was still very deep in the conservative world, I started reading, um, Austin chaning brown was the first book I read. I'm still here. Mm-hmm . And that kind of started me down this path of, wait a second. Maybe, maybe my denomination has missed the vote on some things. And if we've missed the vote on how we, um, have cared for and loved people of color, are there other people in the margins that we have, um, rejected or hurt in the way that we have
Gordon (04:51):
Mm-hmm um,
Katelyn (04:52):
Moved in the world, I guess. And that led to questions around, um, sexuality was next, I think . Yeah. Um, but then mixed in all of those things was just wrestling with this idea of God as a very wrathful and vengeful, um, punishing entity who is very exacting in this, like, um, there was a lot of talk about grace, but I didn't really understand how that grace applied because it was very, uh, conditional, I guess it felt like mm-hmm um, and yeah, a lot of questions around God's WRA and, um, my denomination taught predestination. And so I really struggled with this concept of certain people being chosen to go to heaven and others being chosen to go to hell like that was something I wrestled with for a long time. Just not feeling like it was consistent with the loving pieces of God that we see in scripture though.
Gordon (06:00):
Right?
Katelyn (06:01):
Yeah.
Gordon (06:02):
Yeah. So as, as your, as your theology and it might be helpful for us to maybe tell folks that are listening, you know, when, when, when we speak of theology, what comes to mind for you? Because I think that's at least in my mind that has a lot to do with why people believe what they believe
Katelyn (06:23):
Mm-hmm um, well, I guess being a language nerd, I just think of like, very literally like the study of God and mm-hmm I think I found the path originally to be very narrow of like, this is the very specific way in which you must study and know about God mm-hmm , but I think now I'm starting to see that that's a much wider and broader path than I ever thought in the beginning.
Gordon (06:58):
Right, right. Mm-hmm yeah. So yeah. So I, if you were to describe your theology now, what is that, what is that like?
Katelyn (07:10):
I think now the question I tried to ask is does this look or sound like love, um, and kind of work from there, I've really come to realize that there was talk of grace before. Um, but I don't think I really wrestled with the expansiveness of it and the welcomingness or hospitality of God and the way that his people can mirror that. I suppose.
Gordon (07:47):
Mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah. So yeah. You know, one of the things that I know that, uh, you had shared with me, Caitlin, is, is that part of the, part of this journey for you has been, you know, really maybe confront is too strong of a word, but really having to have conversations and interactions with people that maybe, you know, whether it's family members or, or for, you know, people that you grew up with or went to church with mm-hmm and being able to have that discourse. And so how, how has that been working for you and how have you been able to do that?
Katelyn (08:30):
Well, it's tricky and I don't necessarily think I have it figured out or that I've done it right each time
Gordon (08:37):
Mm-hmm .
Katelyn (08:38):
Um, but I think foundational to, before I could go into a conversation with someone else was really learning how to grant myself permission, to not understand something fully permission, to wrestle and to allow faith, to be a continuous process of trying to draw near to God. And it not meaning that I have my airtight boxes of this means this, and this means that mm-hmm . Um, and I think, honestly, that was the hardest part, um, because I had been trained at the graduate level in mm-hmm the theological doctrine in my previous denomination. It was, I just struggled so much to give myself grace and compassion in this whole, like, I know that I don't believe that , but I don't know what I do believe instead right. Like it's not, but what is it? Um, mm-hmm and that was really difficult for me to sit with and to be patient with myself as I read and got tired of reading and then had to take a break because it's exhausting to really, uh, undo a lot of things that turn out to be kind of central to your identity and your formation as a child.
Gordon (10:09):
Right. Right.
Katelyn (10:11):
So that's the hardest part I think. And what I'm still working on when it came to O conversation with other people like my parents or family members, who've watched me kind of go through this changing of my mind. Um, I think I've also had to work on, um, what that passage just says, like always being ready to have an answer for the hope that's in you or whatever. Mm-hmm . I was always told that as a kid and I always would play it in my mind as like, well, whenever you're sharing what you think about something, you need to be able to be very winsome and very clear and just lay it all out there in a like properly defensive way so that it makes sense to the other person mm-hmm um, because that's how you are a faithful witness for Christ mm-hmm
Gordon (11:05):

Katelyn (11:07):
And rethinking my beliefs on things made that aspect very difficult. And so also trying to give myself permission to have conversations and then say, I don't know, mm-hmm or to say when things are getting uncomfortable or maybe a little tense to be like, I really love you, and I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not ready to talk about this any further mm-hmm yeah,
Gordon (11:41):
Yeah, yeah. That's a, yeah. And that's a, I think a, a struggle for a lot of people is, is that being able to, in many ways, by doing that in the way that you described is really kind of an act of kindness and compassion, not only towards yourself, but also to the other person, cuz I think a lot of times we can get into heated these discourse where things mm-hmm, just get more and more emotionally flooded and then, then we're not doing, then it becomes no discourse at all. It's just two people yelling at each other kinda thing. Mm-hmm yeah. And so that's a, that's a, I think an important, important piece and it's been a, been kind of a theme that's come out in other episodes of this POS podcaster, just being able to slow things down enough to respond to each other rather than just react to mm-hmm yeah.
Katelyn (12:37):
I've tried to kind of in myself and in the person that I'm talking to try to tease out, is this curiosity or is this defensiveness mm-hmm because I think when we're both coming from a place of curiosity, the conversation becomes more about relationship with each other. It becomes more about, uh, wanting to know and understand the other person better it less about wanting to be right, or to be agreed with, but more about mutual understanding of the other person. Even if you don't walk away with a, um, a feeling of agreement I suppose.
Gordon (13:19):
Right, right. Yeah. Well, I, to change gears a little bit, Caitlin, one of the things that I know just about your, your background is that you spent quite some time working as a missionary or mission kind of the mission field, so to speak, how, how did that impact your life and how did that really kind of change your theology to some degree?
Katelyn (13:47):
Well, so I was working at a Bush hospital in Kenya, in the summers, in between my college years. And then once again, after college and it was a, a Christian organization, um, I really think that it, this was before like I really started deconstructing or had left my previous sound this before all of that. But I think the biggest thing I took away from it was watching people love and worship God in a way that was just very different from mine. So Kenyan church is this like exuberant, joyful dancing, extremely long, like the whole day experience. Um, mm-hmm and there's a lot more, I guess, openness in their mind to the supernatural. So like the mm-hmm activity of, um, angelic or demonic forces was just more prominent or talked about more than I think it is in the us. And so to kind of think about faith in that sense and to wash, watch others worship with such joy, um, just like explosive joy was, uh, was very beautiful coming from a tradition that is much more formal Um-huh
Gordon (15:26):

Katelyn (15:27):
Yeah. And very like we sit in our chairs and we sing kind of softly
Gordon (15:33):
Mm-hmm
Katelyn (15:35):
Yeah,
Gordon (15:36):
Yeah. It's uh, I've I've heard it referred to as, uh, the, the happy clappy versus the frozen chosen. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, yeah. Yes. So yeah. It's well, it's, it's been nice and as be in being, uh, CA's friend and just being connected with her to see, to see your growth in this and what you're discovering about yourself and just how you live into that live into all of this with kindness and compassion and yeah. So what, what sort of maybe kind of, um, closing thoughts do you have just about, about that? Um, you know, how are you, how do you see yourself living into kindness and compassion through this, these changes you're going through with changing theology thing, changing beliefs and, and all of that.
Katelyn (16:28):
Mm-hmm, , I'm still working on showing myself kindness and compassion as there's still a lot of, um, aspects of my theology that I am still rethinking or, you know, I have a stack of books, a mile high, but I'm, , mm-hmm, working through them very slowly. And so just having compassion with myself for not having to have everything figured out and to be willing to, uh, welcome others into that piece and not try to act like I, um, I know exactly what I'm doing cause I don't mm-hmm
Gordon (17:05):
. Yeah.
Katelyn (17:07):
And then I guess for, uh, dear friends around me, just having kindness and compassion around their, um, the rate at which they themselves want to change or are accepting my change. I, I find myself frustrated sometimes and I have to remind myself that, you know, just a few months ago, that's exactly where I was or what I was thinking. Mm-hmm I, I don't know, just finding the humanity in knowing the person's story and my relationship with them and understanding exactly the fear and the need for certainty and control. That's just so prevalent and mm-hmm, kinda under probably undergirding a lot of these conversations about what is faith
Gordon (18:07):
Mm-hmm .
Katelyn (18:09):
Yeah. And then knowing when to pull back and be like, this is not a, a beneficial or a healthy conversation right now. I love them still, but I, we cannot, I don't, I don't want to engage in it in an angry or hurtful
Gordon (18:30):
Mm-hmm
Katelyn (18:31):
Of course.
Gordon (18:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. And I think it's, um, I think it's, for all of us, it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing kind of thing, ongoing journey and struggle to really kind of, to, to wrestle with these, these deeper issues. Um, I'm always, always reminded in, in thinking about people that go through kind of changes in their, their belief system or whatever is, um, uh, J Jacob wrestling with the angel, which is an image out the Bible. And I always think of it as Jacob wrestling with God, which might, might not be literally cardiac, but that's how kind interpret that that particular scripture in the Bible is, is that I think God wants us to wrestle with these things. And I think to be able to, to know ourselves better and also know each other better is, is our wider communities to be able to, to talk about these things and understand 'em and, uh, you're exactly right.
Gordon (19:33):
There are no clear black and white answers and that's where we get, I think can get into the weeds. Mm-hmm is, um, another way I think about it is that we, we tend to want to think of is in, in terms of either, or it's either this mm-hmm or it's that mm-hmm , but most of the time it's not either, or, but both, and that there's this kind of, this, this melding of ideas that is somehow another greater than the whole, so mm-hmm yeah, yeah. So, well, Caitlin, I'm so glad, um, I wanna be respectful of your time and I'm so glad you joined me in this conversation and this is, uh, this is exactly the kind of meaty stuff I love talking about in this podcast. So, uh, tell, and, and we'll have some more information, uh, in the show notes about if you wanna maybe somehow or another contact Caitlin or talk to her, I'm sure she'd be, uh, not, not to put words in your mouth. I'm sure you'd be O open for that. Somebody would like have conversation like this and we'll have her information in the show notes and the show numbers for people. So, but Caitlin, thanks for joining me in this episode.
Katelyn (20:49):
Yeah. Thank you, Gordon. And thank you for your role in helping me rethink some things.
Gordon (20:55):
You're welcome. You're welcome. Mm-hmm .

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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