Tag: psychology

Gordon (00:20):
Well, hello folks. And what welcome again to the kindness and compassion podcast. And I'm so excited to have these two people, husband and wife team Jody and Gracie Dover, who I have known a long time. Um, and I was so excited that they agreed to be on the podcast. So welcome Jody and Gracie.
Jody (00:42):
Thank you.
Gracie (00:43):
Thank you so much.
Gordon (00:44):
Yes, it's uh, they are two of my, I'll have to, uh, little disclaimer here. They are two of my daughter's best friends and so they probably know more about my daughter than I do so, um, and, and, and they're sworn to secrecy, but that's okay. That's okay. That I can and treat that with kindness. So, uh, Jody Gracie, why don't you tell folks a little bit about yourself and where you are and how you've landed, where you've landed?
Jody (01:15):
Sure. We'd love to. Um, so right now, we're we service as the directors at Duncan park, uh, which is an Episcopal can and conference center, um, just outside of Boulder, Colorado, uh, but it is owned and operated by the diocese of west Texas, which is a very, very interesting concept. The di of the west Texas has three very unique camping sites under one camping ministry. Um, so they have camp capers in the hill country of, of Texas just outside of Santa Antonio, Mustang island down on the coast. Um, and, and then our site Duncan park up, up in the mountains. Um,
Gracie (01:51):
Yeah, so Jody serves as the director of Duncan park and I'm the food service director. And I also kind of am responsible for general hospitality retreat kind of stuff. So we kind of tag team the camp and retreat side of things. Um, we split our time evenly between San Antonio and Colorado. So right now we're right outside of San Antonio and wearing Texas. Um, and we just travel a lot and head back and forth. Um, we spend summer and fall in Colorado and winter spring here in Texas.
Gordon (02:24):
Yes, yes. Live in the dream. I, in my, in my, in my opinion, so, I mean, it's awesome. But one, one of the things I know that we wanted to talk about today on the podcast is, um, just about the influence of kind of camp experiences and that sort of thing for, for kids growing up. I know for you all, and also my daughter, Rebecca she's probably will be on here at some point if I can talk her into it. But one of the things I know is that being part of just camp life in general has been a huge influence in just kinda shaping who you are and, and just kind of your whole world view. And I know that it's a, it's a world view that is very much tied to kindness and combat, particularly for the, for the kids you serve and that sort of thing. So, yeah. So talk about that. I think that that's just really what I'm interested in hearing about, and I know the audience would be interested in hearing about that too.
Gracie (03:32):
Oh, for sure. Um, so we met working at grace point in east Tennessee, which is the Episcopal camp of the ISIS of east Tennessee. And we were on summer stock there for like four summers. And after we left camp, we continued to work for the diocese of east Tennessee and just kind of kept in that vein. Um, but really, you know, the thing that stuck out to us the most is when we got married, it was like everyone that was at the wedding was somehow connected to us through camp. And you know, that community just always lifted up our relationship and supported us, um, and you know, really encouraged us to communicate with one another and really grow alongside one another. And so there's this, like, I guess this facet of working at camp where you're like hyper aware of relationships and how you can deepen them and how to like meet people where they are. Um, so it makes for, you know, lifelong friendships like us with Rebecca and obviously, you know, we ended up getting married. So that was really helpful and the development of our relationship and yeah, it's just a place where you can really meet people where they are based on the fact that everyone has kind of let their guard down.
Gordon (04:47):
Mm. Yeah.
Jody (04:49):
And for me, um, everything that Gracie said, it rings true for me as well. But, uh, for our young people that we serve something that's, that's kind of our main consistent, um, is it really gives young people, especially in the Christian community, their first example of what it looks like to be part of the wider body of Christ. Um, they, they they've been a part of their parish. They've been a part of maybe their youth group and that small community that they're very, very comfortable with. Um, but, but for a lot of the kids that we serve, this is their first experience with that larger community and, and, and learning how to live intentionally, um, in, in a way where we model how, what it means to love each other, what it means to lift each other up and encourage one another. Um, and that, that's something that is, that rang true for me as a, as a young person, as a camper. But it's something that, that I think so special. Um, we can do all the activities and have all the fun we want, but really when it boils down to, to what it means to, to truly live in to camp ministry, um, it it's the bond that, that is formed between the campers within a, a, a four or five day period. It's an incredible thing to watch.
Gordon (06:03):
Right. Right. Well, one, one of the things that I know, I, you know, kind of a little bit of my history with that is that one of the things that I did, uh, few summers was to serve as kind of a two Caplan for the camp. And one, one of the things that I noticed is, is that it gave by, you know, taking, taking gig young people, people, and putting 'em in a situation that was totally kind of new to a lot of 'em. They had never really, I, I remember one of the camps that we had, it was really kinda some of the inner city kids that had never really been outside their neighborhoods or where they lived and, and bringing them into a situation where it was totally foreign. And they had to be totally vulnerable to the situation. And when it was met with kindness and compassion, and really just acknowledging the uncomfortableness of it, of it all, um, it really changed the way that they saw themselves and ch saw each other, um, in that they, it, it was a safe place for people for kids to be,
Gracie (07:15):
Oh, for sure. And we deal with a lot of that kind stuff at Duncan park, because we're primarily an outdoor adventure camp. So we get kids from, you know, all walks of life that are coming out and sleeping in a tent for the first time and going on a hike for the first time and putting these, putting themselves in these very vulnerable positions. But, you know, with the support of the camp community, they end up really enjoying it and like really coming out of their box. And they have a great time, man, who wouldn't we're in Colorado, but like, yeah, yeah. It, it's really interesting to see that transformation happen throughout the course of the week. They just totally let their guard down and, you know, feel comfortable with us and the staff and their fellow.
Gordon (08:00):
Yes. Yes. So, um, to put you on the spot a little bit, um, can either of you maybe think of a story of a particular kid or whatever that was just that you saw being totally changed by their camp experience? I mean, just an, a big, the pack that it made for them.
Gracie (08:22):
You do more with the campers one.
Jody (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, there's one, I mean, honestly, there are, there are lots of, of, of examples of that, um, working in camp history for, for a long time, or even a short time, you see it, uh, weekend and week out, but there's one example in particular, um, from this past summer, we, we were hosting a, a group that was specifically a backpacking group and they, they came up to, to Duncan park and we, we host a, a lot of sessions that have, have a variety of activities, but this in particular, we were going to be on trail for four nights, uh, or four days, three nights. Um, and, and so it was an intensive, uh, back country trip. And it was a, it was a group of 12. Uh, and, and when they arrived, we, we provide all of their gear. We provide everything for them.
Jody (09:12):
Um, so we were pull out the gear, getting everything ready to go. And I hand one of the youth a backpack, and he says, what's this, what's this, this, this is a backpack. This is what we'll use. Uh, as we work through our week, this week, he said, where are we going? We're not staying here. Um, he had no idea. He had no idea that he was going on a back country trip. He was told that he was going on a trip to Colorado. Um, and that, that he, and he didn't realize that, that, that it entailed, uh, actually going into the woods and living in the woods. Um, and, and there was, he, he took it somewhat well, but, but you could tell that there was this sense of, of panic, this sense of, of unknown. Um, and, and he didn't really, he, he wasn't used to anything like that.
Jody (10:04):
Um, and, and it was very interesting because the first couple of days, it, it wasn't that he didn't wanna be there, but you could tell that he was unsure. You could tell that he wasn't comfortable. Um, and, and as we continued on the up, uh, the staff and the campers alike, uh, J just kept trying to support him and kept trying to encourage him, um, to, to live into it. We're, we're here. Uh, let's be present, let's be together. Let let's really make this, make this the best situation that it can be. And he came out of that week, um, really enjoying and, and, and really he pushed himself way, way out of what he ever imagined his comfort zone be. Um, and, and, and when I talked to him at the end of the week, he not only let me know that he, he was so happy to make friends, but he, that he was so joyful that he was able to have that experience.
Jody (10:57):
Um, and, and that, that it was something that he'd remember through us, his life. Um, wow. And, and I may never see that camper again, I may see him year after year. Um, but, but for him in particular, it was this, it was this moment of realization that he was able to do something that he never even thought that could accomplish. Um, he did it well. So that, just that, that sense of transformation of, of not only being able to physically do something that you didn't think you could do, but also spiritually and emotionally, um, being able to, to put yourself out there to make new friends, uh, people that you, you, you've never really spent time with, you get on a plane and travel a thousand miles and then go into the back country with them. Um, that that's an intimidating thing. Yeah. Um, especially for our young. And so just, just to be able to kind of take it by the horns and, and, and really make it the best trip that he possibly could of. I was, I was just so proud of him, uh, to, to do that.
Gordon (12:01):
Yes, yes.
Gracie (12:03):
Sorry, what were you saying, Gordon?
Gordon (12:04):
No, I said I was, uh, I was just thinking, uh, as you were telling that Jody, I was reminded of, uh, of Bernie NA brown, who you guys might be familiar with. Who's done a lot of writing on courage and on vulnerability and that sort of thing. And one of the things about that is that I think that, um, she, she says essentially that you cannot have courage without vulnerable. In other words, you, you courage doesn't even occur without vulnerability. And I think when we can create the space for people to be vulnerable, they experience courage for the first time. And the, and, and when we do that, it's it's life changing.
Gracie (12:54):
Oh yeah. And prime example of that at Duncan park is like, so we do a different activity each day. And the last full day of camp Thursday is rock climbing day. And we'll go rock climbing in Boulder canyon, which is, you know, very popular rock climbing spot. And it's always like, everyone is terrified on the outset because it looks like this very big, crazy daunting thing. Um, but you know, our guys are awesome. They work with them. They're very honest with them. And it's always the kids that are the most afraid they wait until like the last probably 30 or 45 minutes. And they're like, okay, I'm gonna get up on the wall. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. And then they're the ones that get all the way up to the top. So it's like what? And given the opportunity to be really courageous, they're like, all right, going in, I'm doing this. Yes. And it's so cool. Watch that happen. They just totally, yeah. Take it by the horns and like go with it. It's great.
Gordon (13:48):
Yes. Yes. I love it. I love it. So, yeah. So to, to change gears a little bit, um, um, I know one of the things I know about, um, Gracie and Jody is, is that they had a pretty life changing event a few years ago when they went to Africa. So you wanna say some, something about that and just, uh, what, what impact that made for you in your lives and how that, how that changed you?
Jody (14:20):
Absolutely. Um, so the first time that I went with the diocese east, Tennessee, um, I was 19 years old. And, uh, it was, it was an experience that on the front end, I thought, well, I didn't know, know what to think. First of all, um, I'd been out of the country, but obviously Africa is, is a totally different animal. And, um, I, I kind of blindly trusted, uh, some people that, that I really, um, really respected, um, and, and, and really looked up to, and they said, I, I really think that this is something that, that would be beneficial to you. Um, and so I went and not knowing what to expect, not knowing what we were going to do. Um, and, and what I realized was that we were just there to build relationships. We were there to trust one another. We were there to listen to the people, um, and, and we weren't there to change anything.
Jody (15:19):
We were, we weren't there to, to be any kind of savior. We weren't there to, to really do any, any tangible, physical work. Um, but, but the work that we did, um, what was more letting, letting us know that we have brothers and sisters in, in Christ all across the world, um, letting, letting our, our friends in Tanzania know that, that they have brothers and sisters and friends all across the world and, and being able to be a part of, um, a part of something even bigger than anything that I could do myself, uh, was huge. It, it, it really kind of resembled part of the camp community, but on a much bigger level, um, it, it's still an intentional community and it's still, uh, kind of what I mentioned earlier. It, it exemplified what it means part of the wider body of Christ, not just your home community, um, and, and camp kind of gives you a taste of that, but going to Tanzania and, and being a part of the Anglican communion there really solidified that this is, this is much bigger than me. Um, and, and, and I'm so happy to be a part of it. It, um, but there is good work being done all over the globe. Um, it's, we're, we're just a small piece
Gracie (16:40):
For sure. And, well, my experience in Tanzania was more, cuz we both went separately. Jodi went twice and then I went once by myself and, um, my experience was more about letting go and not, cause I love to be in charge. I love a plan. I love to know what's going on. Um, and that is the opposite of the experience that you have in Sannia. So for me, it's like, I guess the best way to describe it is every day you get in this Rover and everyone's just kind of piled in there and then you drive on these roads for like hours, these roads that are like, obviously not super well maintained cuz you're in the middle of Africa and you know, you're just kind of like bouncing along things are bumpy and the guides Pascal and Steven will be like, Hey, listen, you know, just don't fight it.
Gracie (17:27):
Like let your body just kind of move with the Rover. And like you won't have a sore back at the end of the day. And so I think that's the best way to describe it is if you just kind of, you know, roll with it and exp let it, let the experience happen, you know, you're gonna get the most out of it. Um, but the second you try to control and try to micromanage that's where you're gonna run into problems. So that was the biggest takeaway for me was just like, you know, listen, like you can just ride in the Rover, you don't have to be driving like it's okay. You don't have to know what's going on at all times.
Gordon (18:00):
Right, right. Oh, I love that. I love, I love that story because I think that just has so many implications just across, you know, just thinking about mindfulness and thinking about, uh, being able to, um, to let go of things, forgive all of that kind of stuff. Ties, ties into that. And I think the thing that, um, I think for, for one thing that I would guess that you both got out of going place like Tanzania is that you really did have to kinda let your guard down and, and you also, it, it takes away a lot of judgment that people tend to have about other cultures and other way people's, people's way of living or, and, and that sort of thing that when you understand the backstory of someone, um, it, it gives you room to have more compassion for what they're going through and what their, what their life is about. So I love that and I love that. I love that metaphor. It, that just a writing in the, in the, the land Rover and trying to fight all the bumps and all of that sort of thing and just going with it. I love that.
Gracie (19:16):
Oh yeah. And I mean, thinking back on it, I think going to Tanzania really prepared us for our experience at Duncan park because, you know, there's a lot of just like going with it, making and do, um, figuring things out as you go again, meeting people where they are understanding people for who they are as people and not for like you have, and, you know, at Duncan park, it's so similar because you know, you're up in the wilderness, you're like an hour from any kind of like definitive care. You're just kind of like isolated and you know, so many things happen and people have to trust you like that. And being able to be on the receiving end of that helps you be the agent for that so much more, I think.
Gordon (19:59):
Awesome. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, guys, I know we could probably talk all day and I wish we were in person because I'd love to give you both a hug, but I just, uh, we're in two different places, but, um, tell folks how they can get in touch with you all, if they want to find out more about Duncan park and also maybe connect with you guys.
Jody (20:23):
Sure. Yeah. So, um, like I said, Duncan park is, is owned and operated by the diocese of west Texas. Um, so, uh, if, if anybody's interested in Duncan park or any of the other camps here, uh, D wtx.org is, is where you would find us. Um, and like ay said earlier, you know, this is something that, that we truly have a passion for that, that we love to do. Um, so if anybody ever has any questions, that's not necessarily Duncan park related, but just camp related. Um, it it's something that, that we, we love to talk about. Um, so if anybody's thinking about pursuing something like that, or even just youth ministry in general, um, we'd love to talk about it.
Gracie (21:03):
Yeah. You can reach out to us via email Duncan dot park. That's D U N C a N dot park D wtx.org. Um, Duncan park is also on Instagram at Duncan. Um, so you can see kind of, you know, the natural surroundings that we're in and all that kind of stuff. Um, but yeah, if you're interested in youth ministry or camp ministry, or like just, you wanna have a deep combo about whatever, shoot us an email and we'll chat with you, we love that kind of stuff.
Gordon (21:31):
Awesome. Awesome. And we'll have, we'll have links in the show notes and the show summary for people to access that easily. So well, Jody and Gracie, I'm so glad to see your faces and, um, um, good to see you. Yes. Um, for, for, I was listening to the podcast, we do this by zoom, so that's what I meant. So, um, anyway, I hope to be able to get out there. I was close to coming out there last October, but I think you guys have probably already left, but I didn't get to Colorado after all, but anyway, gonna hopefully get out there and get to hang out with you guys.
Gracie (22:07):
Oh, please do. Yeah, we would love to have you we'd love visitors. We'll show you around. Take you hiking, all that good
Gordon (22:12):
Stuff. I'd love to go on that three night backpacking trip. That sounds like my thing.
Gracie (22:18):
Oh yeah. It's awesome.
Gordon (22:20):
Awesome. All right guys, take care.
Jody (22:23):
Thank you.
Gracie (22:23):
Thank you, Gordon. Say Hey to Sister and the Kitties for us.
Gordon (22:26):
Okay. You sure? Thanks.

Brian (00:00):
A part of a part of how we get to a place of deeper reconciliation is to appreciate how it is people are made and shaped over time, either the trauma or the blessing, the nurture, or the neglect, you know, that, that those things together, um, end up making us who we are. And then, then you put us in relationship. Uh, and so we bump up against each other. And I think, you know, the, the saying about kindness and compassionate being kind and compassionate, you know, that so often we don't know what people are going through. You know, while at times that might feel like kind of an old cliche, it is so true.
Gordon (00:42):
Welcome to the kindness and compassion podcast, where we will explore the intersection of psychology science and spirituality. My name is Gordon brewer and I'm a licensed psychotherapist and mental health provider. I have spent my career helping people learn how to better manage their emotions and find more meaning in their lives and connection in their relationships. Join me as we think and talk about the ways we can find happiness and be content in our lives, through the practices of kindness and compassion. We will talk with other experts in the fields of psychology, science and religion. I'm so glad you're with me on this journey as we learn how to be at peace with ourselves and others.

Gordon(01:39):
Hello Everyone. I'm Gordon brewer and welcome again to the kindness and compass podcast. And this is episode number six and glad you're joining me glad you're with me on this journey. You know, when I was, uh, first conceptualizing, uh, starting this podcast, uh, which has been couple of years in the making, at least in my mind, or at least in my head, one of the people, but I knew I wanted to have as a guest was the person you're gonna hear from today. And that is Bishop Brian Cole. And Brian is my Bishop, uh, have shared in other, I think in earlier episodes. Part of my, one of the many hats that I wear in addition to being a psychotherapist is that I'm a, a deacon in the EPIs church, which is a, a clergy clergy person. Uh, one of the three orders of clergy in the Episcopal church, Bishop's priests and deacons.
Gordon (02:34):
I'm a deacon and a deacon's role in the Episcopal church has really ministry in the world. So in, in many ways, this podcast has become part of my, a ministry and just trying to reach people and, uh, communicate maybe a new way of thinking about the world and how we interact with each other. So Brian is the Bishop of east Tennessee, and he's gonna tell you a little more about himself, but I, I feel so privileged to have him in my life and it being in relationship with him and my role in the church. And, um, I think when you hear from him, you're gonna really, uh, understand why he is so liked and so loved by so many people in our area and just really what an intelligent and thoughtful person that he is. And, um, he is certainly the kind of person that at least for me, um, really demonstrates a lot of kindness and compassion and in all of my interactions with him, that is how he has approached things.
Gordon (03:37):
So, um, looking forward to you, hearing from, uh, Bishop Brian Cole, um, but before we get to him, one of the things I'd like for you to do is first invite you to check out the website, kindness and compassion.com. And if you haven't done so already sign up for email list, I'm gonna be putting out some emails in just a newsletter type format to give you more resources and ways to think about kindness and compassion. Um, and so invite you to do that by just going to the website, kindness and compassion.com, and you'll see some forms to sign up, to start receiving our newsletter. Um, also I'm putting together a guide called the kindness and practices of kindness, compassion guide. And so when you sign up for the email list, you'll be able to get that PDF of just a way to begin to think about different ways you can practice kindness and compassion in your life.
Gordon (04:34):
Um, the other thing too is if you are enjoying what you're, you're hearing here on the podcast, um, and you would like to support it in some way, we do have a Patreon page set up and you can find out more about that by going to kindness and compassion.com/patreon. And it's just a way for people to support the podcast. And when you become a sponsor or a patron of the cast, you can get some little perks there's, uh, some stickers and coffee mugs and t-shirts, and that kind of thing for the different levels of, of Patreons or patrons for the, for the podcast. So I wanna invite you to check that out. So, um, so, um, having said all that without further ado, here's my conversation with the right Reverend Brian Cole, AKA Bishop Cole, AKA Bishop Brian, Hello, everyone. And welcome again to the podcast. And I'm so glad and been looking forward to you all, getting to hear from a person that's near and dear to my heart and that's Bishop Brian Cole. And as I shared in the other episodes, I'm part of, one of the hats that I wear, not only as a, as a psychotherapist, but I'm also a clergy person in the Episcopal church. And so I belong to Brian. And so, Brian, welcome. I'm glad you're here
Brian (06:14):
Important. It is good to be with you and it's good to, well, I think that we belong to each other. So, uh, it's good to be a part of, uh, your work, uh, knowing both your important work as a psychotherapist and also as a deacon in the Episcopal church.
Gordon (06:28):
Yes, yes. And so Brian, as I start with most everyone, why don't you tell folks a little bit about you and kind of how you've landed, where you've land?
Brian (06:38):
Yeah, so I grew up, uh, in Southeast Missouri and, um, church has always been a big part of my life, but I grew up in the Southern Baptist tradition and, um, and it's, it's wild for me to think about that little Baptist kid who now serve as an Episcopal Bishop in east Tennessee. Um, I didn't leave the central time zone until I was 19 years old. So my world was pretty small, uh, geographically, but, um, it's a world where I felt loved by all kinds of folk and, um, and a part of, you know, it would take, uh, several podcasts to get me from, Hey time, Missouri to Knoxville, Tennessee. I think the main thing I would say is just, uh, again, to think about your topic, um, lots of folks have been really compassionate and kind to me as I've kind of continued to make sense of my spiritual journey.
Brian (07:39):
And it's a thread from that boyhood to who I am now, that makes a lot of sense to me. And, uh, so, you know, a part of me being an Episcopal Bishop is not somehow a rejection of those people who loved me in that little Baptist church in Missouri, as much as, um, the story they first told me has continued to unfold in my life and has brought me here. I'm married to Susan Weatherford and we have a son Jess who lives in Birmingham, Alabama, he's in his mid twenties and we have a dog named Jerry Lee. Who's the world's luckiest rescue. Uh, he's a Sue. And, um, he, he brings a lot of delight and love, uh, into our world.
Gordon (08:23):
Yes, yes. The, the canine of the ordinary, which I'll, uh, maybe explain that later, but that's, uh, yeah, that's, that's, that's great. So, uh, you know, the topic we had just kinda landed on, which to me is just very befiting of bro Ryan, because when he became Bishop of the diocese of east Tennessee, this theme came out about reconciling and, and being able to reconcile. And I think for some folks, when they think of the word reconcile, they think, okay, that's something I do to my checkbook, but you wanna, you wanna talk about what that means and maybe how that ties into kindness and compassion?
Brian (09:07):
Yeah. So, um, you know, I had been a parish priest in Asheville, North Carolina, a parish priest in Lexington, Kentucky. And when I was elected Bishop of east Tennessee and was moving to Knoxville, um, I was really mindful that I wanted my ministry as a Bishop, which is sort of an overseer and an encourager of parish, clergy and parish ministry. I wanted to make sure whatever I offered to the diocese is what help us all pull in the same direction. And that as a Bishop, I never sort of offered some idea or program that was a distraction or got people off course. And, um, in the book of common prayer in the catechism, which is sort of a, a place of teaching, uh, there's a question about what is the mission of the church. And the answer given is the mission of the church is to restore all people to unity with God and each other in Christ, and also in the letters of Paul.
Brian (10:07):
At some point, he talks about this ministry of reconciliation to which we've all been called. I remember thinking reconciliation then is, is to be a core value in the Christian tradition and in the Episcopal church. And, you know, I, I grew up in a, what is now a very red part of America, and I have served in a place like Asheville, North Carolina, which, you know, if a place could be any more, uh, bluer than that, I don't know. Uh, and I am Ken to people across the political divide and theological divide. And, you know, if in Christ, there is no Eastern or west, uh, if in Christ there's no neither Greek nor Jew slave nor free male, nor female, all are one in Christ. You know, somehow the idea that in this place of the Christ, we can all be who we are and somehow all belong to each other, uh, in a time that feels so deeply polarizing and deeply fractured.
Brian (11:10):
Um, I thought if I offer anything, it would be to invite people to say, this is gonna be our work, knowing that at, uh, once you say that people have a whole lot of questions about, well, so how do we do that? Do we do that by simply avoiding any topic that we might disagree on, which is not helpful? Cause I think at some point that becomes a really thin sort of just, we're all gonna be nice to each other, but knowing that, that sort of deep reconciliation work, um, only comes with trust, right? And so part of the work is there's a whole lot of work you have to do before you get to the place of the real breakthrough of some reconciled people, uh, knowing this is a long answer to your good, good question, knowing that for us, you know, that that act of reconciliation is really something God has done, uh, with Jesus on the cross.
Brian (12:03):
If you think about how radical it is for Jesus to forgive his perpetrators while he is being killed, I mean, that sets high bar for what it means to be able to forgive. So really all that we're doing, you know, if you and I have a real falling out with each other Gordon, if you, and I find a way to somehow say, we need to, we need to admit this wrong that we have between each other and what would it take to make it right in order to be reconciled? All, all that we're doing is really in many ways, echo in response to what we've experienced, uh, with Jesus on the cross. So, um, you know, I think, I think you, and I can never say, you know, we could never be reconciled if we have that example of just a radical global and cosmic, uh, work that the Christ did on the cross.
Gordon (12:52):
Right. Right. Yeah. The 1, 1, 1 thought that occurs to me and this maybe is another, another question here, you know, what, what do you, what do you see as maybe the difference between reconciling versus just tolerating? Mm. Um, you know, uh, because I think we all run into, we're all gonna run into people that we don't necessarily see, see things as they see them. And we, we, by virtue of our values and our background and how we're raised and all that sort of thing, we're gonna have different kind of viewpoints of things. But what would you say about that?
Brian (13:34):
That's a great question. Um, when I think of tolerating, I think of holding my breath and you and I are like, okay, we're about to have lunch with this really difficult person. And we know they're gonna say, you know, outlandish things or offensive things, but we're all, we're just gonna tolerate old Joe. So we're just gonna go in there and hold our breath and hold our tongue and know that we can run out the clock and get back in the car and, and say, man, I'm glad that's over. I think true reconciliation is the ability to, to take a deep breath and really say, I, I am you and I are different. You and I have had some hurt in the past, but there's been the real work of trust, building of truth, telling of how do we make this right. And then that covenant to say, now in going forward, there's a place of reconciliation with us.
Brian (14:37):
So I think, I think also toleration is, again, just in the moment I'm gonna hold my breath and get through this with you. True. Reconciliation is both an acknowledgement that you and I have a past where there's been a brokenness. We had some moment in the present where we made, made it right with each other, and then you and I have some future relationship going forward. Right. Where I think toleration is just, let's just get through this. And once we get through it, we'll have nothing else to do with this particular person or issue. Right. So it, it really is a sort of, um, yeah, it's, it's a different, different level of connection in a sense of, can we get through this as opposed to, can we grow deeper together?
Gordon (15:22):
Right. Right. I'm reminded of, you know, in my work as a, as a therapist in working with couples, one of, one of the keys to a healthy relationship is being able to do, um, reparative work in, in previous episode. I know that that was one of the things I talked with our friend and colleague, the Reverend Claire brown, how do we do that? Repair work? Where we not just, okay, we're gonna agree to disagree and just move on, but actually begin to repair things. And I think part of the work of that is really taking the time to get to know people, get to know their backstory of truly understanding who they are and why they are like, they are kinda thing.
Brian (16:15):
Well, cause you know, yeah. I think sometimes, you know, you'll hear someone say about someone else, you know, I can't imagine how you could ever think that. And a friend of mine wrote an article in Harper's, his name is Garrett Kaiser. He's an Episcopal priest in Vermont. And he said, you know, when you say, I, you know, I can't imagine how Gordon brewer could ever possibly believe X or Y or Z. He says, and you say that in some ways you're expressing a real lack of imagination because if you really put yourself in Gordon Brewer's shoes and you maybe had experiences that Gordon brewer had, you would understand why Gordon believes that. And, and so I think a part of loving the enemy or praying for the enemy is at some point, being able to appreciate if I was that person, I might understand why he or she holds this opinion or holds this, uh, um, uh, approach are, uh, has this take on that.
Brian (17:18):
And I would understand that I might not agree with it, but I'd at least I, I understand how Gordon got there, which if, if I can do that, then maybe as I speak my truth, my piece say my history, maybe then Gordon will be able to appreciate eight. Oh yeah. If I was, if I was from there and I'd had these experiences, then I could UN I could also imagine how you got there. And I think for me, when I hear people and it's, it's funny, cuz it's so often meaning Episcopalians, who I think of themselves as being open, open people. But when they say this sort of, I can't imagine how you could ever think that it sort of immediately limits their vision or their imagination. And so I think a part of a part of how we get to a place, a deeper reconciliation is to appreciate how it is people are made and shaped over time, either the trauma or the blessing, the nurture or the neglect, you know, that, that those things together, um, end up making us who we are.
Brian (18:22):
And then, then you put us in relationship. Uh, and so we bump up against each other. And I think, you know, the, the, the saying about kindness and compassionate being kind and compassionate, you know that so often we don't know what people are going through, you know, while at times that might feel like kind of an old cliche, it is so true. Right. So true. I know you probably, you, you obviously have had this experience as a therapist. I've had this experience as Turkey person, you know, people tell us their stories. People give us insights on their stories that we, you know, we can't go around and share. And so it's a, it's a, it's a important Revent thing we hold for them. And what's interesting is then when you see them in the community or see them functioning, realizing yeah. A lot of people don't know what they're caring, but you maybe know as a therapist or I know as a clergy person and, and to, and to watch people sometimes with quiet dignity or quiet confidence, navigate the world where we will, we know, man, there's a burden in them or there's a wound in them.
Brian (19:29):
And yet they're able to somehow out carry on. Yeah. That I think to be able to see people with compassion and kindness, uh, it's only when you create that sort of environment, that's in the deeper work of reconciliation of truth telling of so, so how do we make this right. And, and how much time will that take that only happens if people, I think, feel the safety, um, that they're being seen as, as real genuine people.
Gordon (19:58):
Right, right. Yeah. To, to, to me, one of the things that, um, has, has really been kind of a, kind of a guiding thing for me in my own ministry, as a deacon in, and a therapist and that sort of thing is the importance of just being present with people and being present in a nonjudgmental way of just you, you know, I think about the times in my life when I've gone through struggles and had down times and that sort of thing, what has always meant the most to me is just somebody being present. It wasn't that they had any magic words or anything that it was just that they were there. And, um, yeah. So I think that that is so key, uh, coming around full circle to this whole idea of kindness and compassion is just to be able to, to be present, just be genuine with people and, and do our best, not to judge what's going on with them.
Brian (21:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And yeah. And I think also too, the, the it's I, you said earlier about toleration versus reconciliation, um, I think the awareness of that in so many settings, we do get to choose, right? That, that, um, you know, the invitation to be a truly re saw people that does take work right. And it's not done quickly and it's not done and, and it's not done and then done forever. I mean, it's an ongoing work. And you know, to me, a part of the joy and the, and the grace of being in a, in a community, how of worship and intentional Christian community, part of the joy and the grace of that is also connected to and its work. Right? Cause over time you are gonna, you are gonna fail that person over time. No matter how much you think, no matter how great a person you think I am or how helpful I am to you, if you and I are in real relationship, at some point someone's gonna disappoint someone or there's gonna be some sort of falling out, right.
Brian (22:14):
And, and only then do we get to make the choice of, is this worth continuing to work together? Or is this why I'm gonna now leave that church or leave that community? Or I don't do that anymore. You know, there's the old, the old Joe about they've they find this person he's been stranded on this desert island and he's been there for years and they say, you know, how did you get through, how did you, how did you survive? And, and so they're talking to him about how he did that. And they noticed there's three dwellings that he had built. They said, so tell us about these three dwellings. He said, this first dwelling, this is where I live. He said, and the second dwelling that second dwelling is where I go to church and said, well, what, what about the third dwelling? And he said, well, that's where I used to go to church.
Brian (23:03):
And, um, you know, so even by himself, you know, there's the inner conflict that he faces. And so to me, you know, to be a reconciled, people is not one and done, it's an ongoing work and it, and to me, the gift and the grace and the reason to do it is the belief over time, the more, the more you and I really work out our work together, we ultimately end up going to a deeper place. You talked earlier about working with couples, you know, to me, I have experienced divorce. Um, but I've also experienced remarriage and marriage. And, you know, a part of the gift of that marriage that endures over time is there's just hopefully more that I know about what the person I'm married to, but also more about myself, right? That over time, that kind of ongoing relationship hopefully reflects a deeper maturity, deeper capacity for love and for forgiveness. Uh, and if I, you know, if I end that marriage, you know, I might end some sort of pain or in some sort of hurt, but I'm also gonna end some kind of wisdom that, that hopefully grows in us with that ongoing, true deep, um, vulnerable relationship.
Gordon (24:15):
Right, right. Yeah. This is great stuff. Um, and I know that we could spend hours talking about this 1, 1, 1 final kind of question for you. Brian is, you know, we've been kind of talking about this in the context of just kind of church kinda stuff. What, what do you think we can do outside just in society in general, to be more reconciling with each other?
Brian (24:46):
I learned a lot of good things from my son and Jesse's a wise person and we were together several months ago now where he got a text from a buddy and Jesse read the text to me. And he said, you know, this friend of mine, he's, he's asking me about something that isn't true. I think it was like, Jesse owed him some money on a rent or there, there was something. And Jesse realized there was a misunderstanding in the text and Jesse sort of fought out loud in front of me and he to the young man's text and sort of lowered the temperature. Right. And so he responded, he didn't react. And I said to Jesse, that day, I said, I'm so like, I'm impressed with you because I think a lot of people would've gotten to X like that and would've, you know, flamed them back with some sort of reactive statement, you know, and, and would've, would've increased the temperature and increased the potential conflict and then created some hurt simply because the way in which you re responded and reacted to each other.
Brian (26:08):
And, and it was, it was great to watch Jess sort of experience the misunderstanding and realize there's a way to, to, there's a way to make this right now, as opposed to a, and so I think what I notice in political discourse or discourse in a community or in a neighborhood is how much we react to each other, you know? Yes, you put up, you put up a political sign that I don't like. And instead of thinking, you know what, that's your right to put up that political sign. I don't agree with it, but you know, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. Um, somehow I take great delight and I'm gonna put up a, a reactive sign that says, you know, I think you're not only wrong, but I think somehow you are, you know, not human or, and so, so how quickly it goes from what might be mature conversation to at best kind of elementary school, if not junior high behavior.
Brian (27:07):
Yes. So I think, I think if people breathed more, I think if we, if we counted to 10 before we responded, um, and, and again, to think about a response, not a reaction, uh, I think there are all kinds of ways we could turn down the tempera, you, in order to say, what does it mean to really belong to each other? Because you said earlier, you know, that you as a deacon, you belong to me. I mean, I think I would say people who wanna live in a civil society at some point we belong to each other. And if I think I belong to you that I'm gonna make decisions, not only do they impact, but also hopefully impact you and, or be aware that my decisions do impact you. And I think when we think, you know what, it's my land, it's my decision. It's my salary. It's my whatever. And I don't care what Gordon thinks. I think when we, when we, when we, when we limit ourselves and limit the impact of what we decide, we begin to be reactive people, not responsive people.
Gordon (28:08):
Yes, yes. Yeah. That, that, that is some truth. That is absolutely some truth. I know that, um, again, not to go too far down the, the therapy trail, but that is one of the things, again, in just working with people in relationship hips, when we can, when we can teach ourselves to be mindful enough, not to go on the defensive with others and oppose to going on the defensive, just become curious about what's going on with them. It like, it does exactly what you say. It turns the volume down, and it's a, it's also a, it's also a, a good practice of emotional intelligence when we do that, of being able to be mindful of, okay, they're doing something I don't agree with, but let me just get curious about that and not react, but just respond. And hopefully we can respond in a, in a kind, in a compassionate way, uh, which is not always easy, but I think that's, that's the start.
Brian (29:13):
Well, yeah. And there's also, you know, there's, there's this new word that people have started using about adulting. I'm gonna do adulting a, a U L T I N G. Yes, we think, oh, that, you know, if I buy a house and I have a mortgage that's adulting, or if I, if I open a retirement account, that's adulting. I think the main thing I would encourage folks to think about is, again, mature behavior, responsive care of each other, deep listening, compassionate kindness for, for, you know, for that to be adulting. Yes. Yes. You know, that, I think a part of a part of what allows us to, to work well together is to all grow up, you know, and to be mature for people and, you know, St. Paul, St. Paul, I think it's in the letter to the Ephesians sort of says, you know, I need y'all to grow up.
Brian (30:08):
You know, don't just keep eating baby food forever at some point, grow up and, and, and allow things to change, allow things to grow, allow your mind to be open your heart, to be open, grow up. And I think, I think a part of what would also help us as a society is if we were a society of grownups and, and some self-discipline and some self-restraint and the compassionate heart and the kind heart and the openness to change, and, you know, all those things that, that are in many ways, um, quite elementary and obvious. But for so many people, you would say it's a, it's a impossible task. And I think the more we can adult, the more we have hope for a, yeah.
Gordon (30:51):
I love that. I love that. I, I immediately think of my daughter, Rebecca, that we both, uh, and that's, that's how I describe her as adulting now she's adulting now, so yeah. That's great. Well, Brian, I wanna be respectful of your time. Um, tell folks how they might get in touch with you if they have more, wanna somehow another connect with you.
Brian (31:14):
Yeah. So our do and website, um, D I O E t.org is where you will find more about me and the work I do, uh, in the Episcopal diocese of east Tennessee. Uh, I tell people, I also like to call it the, the diocese of best Tennessee. Uh, I just love, uh, you know, Susan and I were in Asheville, North Carolina before going to Lexton Kentucky. So living in east Tennessee, we live in the heart of a region that we really care about. So to reach out to me, D I O et.org is our website. And you'll find ways to contact me directly or folks on my staff and learn more about what we do in our work of reconciliation, uh, in east Tennessee.
Gordon (31:55):
That's awesome. And we'll have links in the show notes and show summary, so people can find us. So Bishop Brian, thanks for being on the podcast. And I'm sure, I, I know I'll be seeing you here soon.
Brian (32:08):
Yeah. And Gordon, thank you for your, uh, not just a podcast, but the way you live out, a kind compassionate, uh, ministry and vocation and heart. Thank you. Good to
Gordon (32:18):
See.
Gordon (32:32):
Well, I really love that whole thought of being able to respond rather than to react and, uh, absolutely agree with Brian that it, the more we can learn to be responsive to people rather than to reacting to people. I think that is gonna, as he put it, turn the volume down on kind of the, the discourse that we're in right now around polarization and really being so adverse, sir, with people and, and too is I, I said in that is just being able to get curious with people about what's going on with them, I think is a, is a place to start in in being able to practice kindness and compassion. So again, big, thanks to my good, my dear friend and, uh, Bishop Brian Cole for on the podcast. And you can find out more about him by just going to D D I O E t.org.
Gordon (33:28):
Or you can look here in the show notes and find out more about the diocese of east Tennessee. And, and if you're curious about the Episcopal church, you can just go to Episcopal church.org and, um, L love for you to learn out more about this tradition, this faith tradition that we're in, and, um, find out more about that because it's, it's part of our core values. At least we try to, we try to live into that. So anyway, I'm glad you were with me on the podcast. Do take time to visit us@kindnessandcompassion.com and be sure to follow us or to subscribe to the podcast wherever you might listen to it and leave us a review. I'd love to get some honest feedback and, uh, get a response from you on, on, on things that you might have heard and, uh, be sure and share with your friends. And also if you're interested in supporting the work that we're doing, we set up a Patreon page and you can find out more about that by going to kindness and compassion.com/patreon. And that's a way for you to support us financially if you choose to do so or listen and listening to the podcast. So take care of folks, got lots of great guests, us lined up for future episodes. And we'll talk to you in the next one.
Gordon (34:49):
You have been listening to the kindness and compassion podcast with Gordon brewer, part of the psych craft network of podcast. Please visit us@kindnessandcompassion.com, more information, resources, and tools to help you in your journey. Be sure to follow us wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you haven't done so already be sure to sign up, to get the free kindness and compassion practices guide. Again, you can find that@kindnessandcompassion.com, the information in this podcast is intended to be accurate and authoritative concerning the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the hosts guests or producers are rendering clinical medical, mental health, or legal advice. If you need a professional, you should find the right person for that.