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Daniel Fava | Simple Acts Of Kindness & Compassion In Everyday Life | K&C 16

Where am I being kind and compassionate in my everyday life? Daniel Fava, a web-designer and online marketing strategist, is confronted by this very relatable question as he joins Gordon for the next conversation on the podcast. In this episode, Daniel explores with Gordon what he learned about kindness and compassion 13 years ago on a trip to India and how he is still applying it today. Listen in for an encouraging reminder that a small act, when done with love, can be the most powerful act of all.

Meet Daniel Fava

Daniel Fava was born and raised on Long Island, NY and is currently one of just five hockey fans in Atlanta where he currently lives with his wife. After using his skills as a web designer to help his wife launch a private therapy practice in 2011, Daniel decided he want to share those same skills with others. Thus, in 2016 he began a blog called Create My Therapist Website to help therapists learn how to use effective website design and online marketing strategies to launch and grow their private practice. Later he started a podcast to emphasize the importance of going beyond websites and employing online marketing and other strategies for private practice growth.

Coming in solidly as an INFJ on the Myers-Briggs personality inventory, Daniel brews his own beer. Meanwhile, bourbon is his love language—alongside a good hot dog, a good slice of pizza, and a good burger. He’s traveled to 12 countries, including a hike with his wife to the Mt. Everest Base Camp, and he also plays guitar, piano, drums, and bass.

On a Mission

Beginning with his first short-term mission trip to Ukraine in 2008, missions work has been a huge part of Daniel’s life, shaping both who he is as well as the shared vision he and his wife hold for their lives. When he steps outside his daily life and heads abroad on mission, he’s asking the questions: What is God doing in a different location? How can I serve? Share love? Do some tangible work, or help meet needs?

The Ultimate Act of Kindness

In 2009 during a mission trip to India, Daniel spent two days in Calcutta visiting one of the homes founded by Mother Teresa for those suffering with a long-term illness or disability who have no one else to care for them. That’s where he learned about what Gordon describes as “the ultimate act of kindness”—the ministry of presence. Like many of us, Daniel is often task-oriented. He’s used to waiting for directions and looking for someone else to lead the way. However, on his first day in the home, confronted by extreme poverty and human suffering, there was no one to tell him what to do. Self-conscious and out of his element, Daniel jumped in to cross-barriers of language, culture, class, and life-experience to connect with a man through physical contact and simply being present. With his own inner barriers broken, Daniel felt lighter on his second day in the home. He was better able to jump in and be present, even while helping out with a simple task or two—without being focused on himself and his performance.

Refueling our Capacity for Kindness and Compassion

As an introvert, Daniel was on sensory overload during his trip to India. There was no personal space. During this time, he relied on a few key practices that helped keep his inner reservoir of kindness and compassion full. This included getting up early before the rest of his team to journal and find time to be alone with himself and God. As he was faithful to these disciplines, kindness and compassion could continue flowing from his own reservoir to those around him.

Making Sense of Injustice & Learning through Diverse Abilities

Coming face-to-face with extreme poverty and suffering can force us to confront just how much the circumstances of our birth shapes our lives. Daniel wrestled with questions about social justice while he was in India, and while he didn’t find any clear answers, he believes that love and grace can make a difference.

Meanwhile, Gordon shared about powerful lessons he learned during Lent while listening to Henri Nouwen’s book Discernment: Reading the Signs of Daily Life. In the book, Henri shares about his experiences in a L’ARCHE community. L’ARCHE communities worldwide exist to form a network of relationships between members both with and without intellectual disabilities.

Conclusion

Give yourself the gift of perspective. Taking time out to connect with people whose struggles are different than our own—or perhaps more similar than we might think—can be life-changing. Daniel says we won’t regret making the time to step away and volunteer or spend time on mission overseas. He assures us that there’s a gift to unwrap through these experiences that we can’t receive any other way than taking our eyes off of ourselves and being present in the reality of another.

Links & Resources Mentioned

Private Practice Elevation – https://privatepracticeelevation.com/
Daniel Fava on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/DanielFava/
Youth With A Mission (YWAM) – https://ywam.org/
Discernment: Reading the Signs of Daily Life, by Henri J. M. Nouwen
L’ARCHE – https://www.larche.org/

Show summary written by Anne Milligan

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Gordon (00:00):
Well, hello folks, and welcome again to the kindness and compassion podcast. And I'm, I'm looking forward to you meeting a friend of mine, Daniel fava, who I've, uh, I've known for some time now. And Daniel is, um, somebody that I've done some work with not only professionally, but just we're in the same space as far as consulting with people around private practices and the therapy, uh, realm and, uh, Daniel. Welcome.
Daniel (00:28):
Thanks so much for having me Gordon. I'm super excited to, uh, to hang out with you and, uh, and chat.
Gordon (00:33):
Yes. And, and Daniel and I were just kinda reminiscing before we started recording. We had, uh, both got to be at a conference together this first time I had met Daniel in person and it was, uh, it was the, the conference was called the faith and practice conference. So it was really geared towards therapists that, um, kinda liked to incorporate faith based kinds of things with their practices. And one of the things that I'll let Daniel tell more about himself here, but, uh, Daniel's wife is a therapist as well. And so Daniel, um, tell folks a little bit about yourself.
Daniel (01:11):
Yeah. So as you said, my wife is a therapist and she's a, she's a huge part of my story and really my career, uh, because it started helping her get her private practice online, back in 2012. So, uh, I have a website design and development background, and so got her business online with an online presence and a, and a nice website and helped her get some of those first clients, uh, into her practice. And then in 2016, decided to launch my own. Um, I mean, basically I was a freelancer back then, so I figured, oh, I can make some more websites for therapists and I can start a blog and all that stuff. And, um, so over the last, uh, six years or so, it's kind of morphed into, uh, more of a website design agency and SEO agency. And we, we live in Atlanta right now. We've been here since we've been married in 2010, so about 12 years and it's home, I'm, uh, born and raised in New York, long island. Uh, the New York Rangers are in the Stanley cup playoffs right now. So I'm super excited and that always pulls me back home and I love watching them play and listen to the chance at Madison square garden. So, yeah.
Gordon (02:16):
Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, it's a, yeah, as I've gotten to know Daniel, one of the things that I knew his background is part of his story, which is a big part of what I'm looking forward to him, kinda sharing with you, all that are listening is his work, uh, doing some mission work in India and the impact that made on his life and just really how he really changed his mind, maybe about some things. And I don't wanna put words in your mouth, mouth, Daniel around that. Um, but tell, tell folks a little bit about your story with that and just what a difference it made for you.
Daniel (02:57):
Yeah, so yeah, so missions work is a huge, it's really a huge part of my life and who I am and who, you know, myself and my wife are in our relationship. Um, and so first of all, I mean, before even getting into the story, Gordon, I just wanna say thank you for, for this project that you're doing with this podcast, for giving, giving people a space to kind of dig into compassion and kindness. Like when you invited me to be on here, it really, I, I had to reflect, you know, a little bit about, okay, where, where has kindness and compassion played a big role in my life? Uh, where does it play now? I can be, I can sometimes get so pretty hard on myself. Cause my first thought was like, well, where am I being kind and compassionate, you know, in my everyday life.
Daniel (03:42):
And so for my story and my life, uh, since about oh 2008 or so, um, have been doing, I went on my first mission trip to Ukraine and I loved the, the sort of the aspect of taking time out of life and, you know, career and job and all that stuff to just focus on others, you know, to focus on, you know, for me it's what is God doing in a different location? How can I serve and really just share love or share tangible, um, you know, work, maybe that's building something or just, you know, helping meet needs in other countries. So in 2009, I, I joined up with a youth with a mission, which is a, an organization that they have a basis around the world and they basically, um, teach people how to, how to really be disciples of Jesus. And so I did a three month discipleship training school in Montana.
Daniel (04:45):
Um, prior to this, I had lost my job and I had also called off a wedding. I was engaged to somebody that wasn't wasn't the right fit. And so my life was kind of completely wide open. So I took a break from my life and said, okay, God, what are you saying? What are you doing? I have no idea what to do next, let me go to Montana for three months and, you know, go through this, this training and just focus on, you know, what, what did God wanna do in my life? And so part of that was there for three months. So, I mean, that was almost like a mission trip in itself being away for three months in Montana. But then at the end of that, we do an outreach to India and Thailand was where I was scheduled to go. And so I went to, I went to Calcutta India and that was our first stop.
Daniel (05:32):
And, um, one of the places that we got to, we did a bunch of stuff there, but one of the places that we went to was, and I believe it was only for two days was one of the mother Teresa Holmes, uh, in Calcutta. And that was just amazing in, in and of itself just to be in a place where, I mean, we've all likely heard stories about mother Teresa and all that she's done. Um, but there's, there's either two or three. Uh, I forget exactly two or three mother Teresa Holmes is what they call them. And one is for people who are just terminally ill. And so what she saw when she was in calcu was that because of the cast system and just how things work over there, there was, you know, a large group of people who, when they were terminally ill and dying, they would just be basically left for dad.
Daniel (06:24):
And so she wanted to give them a place where they could die with dignity, being surrounded by, you know, people who love and, and care for them. And other home that she started, which was the one that I found myself in was for people with long term illness. So it might not be that they're terminally ill. It could be that they've got a serious injury or they've just got an illness, um, you know, long term. And so what I remember from that experience, and I actually, I was a ferocious journaler back then. And so I had to revisit my journal. So it was, it was kind of cool just having this podcast on the calendar to like, oh, let me go back to this journal from this, you know, pivotal point in my life. And, uh, it took me right back, you know, to that first day there.
Daniel (07:08):
And so try to imagine you're surrounded by all these other volunteers, you know, and people, people also want to go and experience and kind of give them them give of themselves. So you've got people from all over the world, um, who are just there to volunteer. They could be traveling through Calcutta and they've heard about, you know, the mother Teresa Holmes and they wanna experience it. And so basically it's like, you, you show up, you sign in the day starts and nobody tells you what to do. And you're just, you're in this place. And there's there's rooms, it's almost kind of, some of the rooms feel like a hospital, you know, there's just beds of, um, of people just laying there. Um, and, you know, as a, as a male, I was in the, the section where, where the men were, um, and there's nobody telling you what to do.
Daniel (07:55):
And so I remember just these waves of self-consciousness coming over me because I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm here to serve. What can I do? And there's nobody telling you exactly what to do. And it's just like, you just gotta jump in and do it. And, you know, my heart was, I feel like my heart was in a good place because I was like, I want to serve, I wanna, you know, help out. But there was this sort of aspect of my upbringing was like, it's, it's all about the task. You know, like, mm-hmm, , what should I do? Gimme direction, tell me what to do. Um, I'm not always so quick to jump in. It's like, I'm, I'm looking for somebody to lead. Um, and so I remember just kind of wandering around feeling just useless, you know, and that was like, and then I start to get sort of very self-conscious and start like, oh, you're, you're not able to jump in.
Daniel (08:43):
You're an introvert, like all this sort, like that's holding you back, all that sort of stuff. And so I, I finally got very frustrated and was just like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna jump in. And, you know, one of the, another volunteer I ran into said, well, the, the men, like when you just, you just massage them or just talk to them and sit with them. So I found myself next to this man's bed and he was just lying there. Obviously we couldn't speak each other's language, so I just, you know, smiled and, um, and just kind of motioned him like massage massage. And he just kind of, he's just slowly nodded to me. And so I found myself massaging this man's legs who were like, no joke, his legs up above his knee. Wasn't really thicker than my wrist, you know?
Daniel (09:26):
And so I'm having this experience of just like praying for this man as I'm massaging him or, um, you know, praying in my head or praying out loud as I'm massaging him being. So, you know, number one, thankful for my health and my life, and also just being so confronted with, um, just extreme poverty that like this, this man, I don't know, his life story, you know, likely he's, he's in this situation because of where he's lived, where he lives and the family he's born into. And that's really it, you know? And so I'm having this time of like, you know, giving, giving this man a massage, sitting with him, just one on one. And I'm also having this sort of spiritual experience where I'm praying at the same time and just thinking through all these things, you know? And so while I was so focused on the tasks or like, you know, what can I do to help out? I found myself just, you know, one on one with someone and just realizing that that was really what it was, you know, all about.
Gordon (10:34):
Right. Wow, wow. What a beautiful story. And that, um, it, to me, it just kind of speaks to what I, what I like to refer to as just the ministry of, of presence. And, um, mm-hmm, just being, being there with, with folks. Um, not that you could fix anything for that man or right. That sort of thing, other than just to provide comfort and, and be with him is yeah. To, to me the ultimate act act of kindness. Really.
Daniel (11:06):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And cuz I was so hung up on like somebody tell me what to do and put me to work and that sort of thing. And so, you know, I came, I think it was like, um, I forget maybe it was about four hours. We were there in the morning for, and then sort of came away from that. We had some free time, the rest of the day. I remember, you know, just really like reflecting on my motives, you know, what mm-hmm why, why was I feeling? So self-conscious when I was there to like, you know, truly I wanted to serve and if truly I wanted to serve, it's not really about me. It's about the people that are there. It's not about proving anything. It's about the people that you're there to serve, not about the serving in and of itself.
Daniel (11:47):
So I felt like, I felt like God was really just challenging me to, to, you know, kind of let go of all those, those sorts of things. Mm-hmm um, and so I remember, you know, the next day, like I said, we were there for just two days the next day I remember feeling like I had sort of come to terms with why I was there and what I can do and it's okay. It's okay if I'm just standing around. It's okay. If I jump in it's it's just like there was this lightness. I remember just having a lot of actual, like fun the next day, just being there, being present and knowing that I could sit with someone one on one or, um, it's a big place. So they had like lots of cleaning to do, which was mm-hmm actually a lot of fun because they've, they've got basically just like holes in the wall and they just dump, they just dump buckets and buckets of water and then sweep all of the water through these holes in the wall.
Daniel (12:40):
So I found myself doing that the next day. And so it was kind of like, it was a more lighter and fun experience because I had let go of, I need to do this. I need to do that. Whereas I could just be, I could be present. And when I'm not so focused on myself and kind of how I'm thinking and feeling or have to perform, I could jump into whatever, you know, like I said, it could have been one on one with somebody who was there and sick or it could be helping, um, you know, the, the nuns out with cleaning and, and washing dishes and serving food, you know, whatever it was. It was just, I was much more present that second day.
Gordon (13:14):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's amazing how transformative those, those experiences are when you're yeah. When you're confronted, you know, there's a, I think for, uh, I think for a lot of us that have had the experience of going on mission trips, I've I think I shared in the previous episode of this podcast, that one of the things that I was involved in for several years, uh, was going on mission trips to the country of Honduras and yeah, again, uh, you know, at that, at that time, next to Haiti, Honduras was the poorest poorest country in the, in the Western hemisphere. And, um, just being, being confronted with what I, uh, what I think of is just abject poverty and then interacting with people even through a language barrier, because I, I know just a tiny bit of Spanish , uh, but not being able to speak the language, but you make that connection and, and you realize that there's, there's something deeper and something greater that, that tugs at you through that.
Daniel (14:19):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's one thing I just, I love about missions and I've been to been to Thailand, India, Guatemala, Cameroon, um, uh, what else, Mexico? We go to Mexico, a decent amount through our church still mm-hmm um, and it's just, there's, there's just that commonality of humanity and we all have the basic, uh, you know, need of, um, of just love and presence, you know, from one another. Right. And so it's, it's really, for me, I, my wife and I don't really feel called to like live in another country long term, but we do have dreams to take sabbaticals and serve mm-hmm like maybe in the summers when our kids are outta school, mm-hmm , um, but even with the short term trips and we still take them, uh, my wife and I, we help with our, uh, with the missions committee at our church. And there's still something about taking a week off to get out of your business, to get out of, um, mm-hmm, the, the routine of, of parenting and schedules and all that to just serve and sit with somebody mm-hmm and meet a need, you know?
Gordon (15:28):
Right, right. Yeah. I'm, I'm reminded, and we were chatting about this a little bit before we, before we started recording, um, back during lent of this year. Um, I, I took on the task of, uh, what the, I, I don't know if that's a task, but just kind of a discipline of, of reading. Um, well actually listening to on audible Henry Allen's book on discernment. And, um, he reflects in there several times about his work in the LAR community, which LAR is a community, uh, for profoundly disabled people. And what they do is then the kid, they actually live in community where they're paired up with a caregiver. And so they go go through their whole, you know, they, they just live intentionally that way. And wow, just, um, it's, it's quite, it's quite a calling, but it's just, um, really thinking about being able to find God or some people like to might, might put it at a higher power or finding something greater than your, than ourselves in doing just those very simple things of taking care of someone else. Yeah. You know, the bathing and the, like you mentioned, doing the massage, those kinds of things are just are to totally trans transformative, I think for people.
Daniel (16:51):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, that kind of just, that brings me just back to mother Teresa, you know, what, and what she did. And, you know, through this experience, I just began to learn a little bit more, uh, about her. And you could see, you know, in, in Calcutta and India, which is, you know, predominantly, uh, Hindu, there was still, when you're, you're walking down the street, you're seeing in gift shops in other places you're seeing pictures of mother Teresa, you know, they had such respect and honor for this woman when basically she lives to meet those simple needs of, you know, the one person, you know, one at a time. And that really impacted a culture and, you know, a nation or, you know, really the world, obviously, you know, mm-hmm cause she's impacted me, you know? Yeah. So, and, um, there's this great quote that she has and I needed to look it up, so I wouldn't botch it, but it's, uh, not all of us can do great things, but we can do small things with great love. Yes. And it's like, that brings us back to that simple, you know, just yeah. Massaging someone's leg and not even being able to talk to them. It's so simple. But when it's done, when it's done with great love can really just impact a life.
Gordon (18:06):
Right. Yeah. So what, what did, uh, going to a place like Cal kata do for your, I guess maybe your worldview or how you think about your life now and that sort of thing?
Daniel (18:21):
Um, I , that's funny. I actually, I learned a lot about my introversion, uh, through that mm-hmm, through that trip. Uh Calta is just, um, I don't know how many people live there, but it's India, you know, so it's, I remember just being, you know, from the moment you wake up also, you know, being on a trip. So I was part of a team, you know, so I had my team there when I woke up mm-hmm and we'd go out into the city and you're on buses where you're super, extremely hot crammed in, and there's just, there's no personal space at all. I think India was, for me, it was just, uh, it was sensory overload mm-hmm . And so I, I learned a lot about my own sort of practices of, uh, journaling and quiet time getting up before the team was up.
Daniel (19:04):
So I could go outside and be alone, uh, with my thoughts and be alone with God and think, and pray and worship and listen to music mm-hmm , you know, and just kind of find time to recharge, you know, that sort of thing. And that was sort of like the, the, the first, um, uh, being immersed in that sort of culture really. I needed that. Otherwise I wasn't going to be able to do small things, but great love because I would just be anxious and right. Just, uh, exhausted all the time. So, I mean, that was sort of a, kind of a practical thing of just learning about my own personality. Right. Um, I think for, you know, like you said before, just being confronted with poverty, that was a, that was a big, that was kind of just crazy to say. And just to think that just it's crazy that, you know, I'm just because I grew up, uh, in New York or my, the family I grew up in, I am, I've got so many more opportunities than just because the, these other people are, are born a certain place or into a certain family.
Daniel (20:04):
Um, so there's, you know, there's a lot of just like, you're confronted with that justice question and I really don't have, you know, a great answer for it other than, you know, that's, it's, we live in a, in a, in a, in a world that's, that's pretty broken at times, but there's also just through, you know, love and grace and being with, you know, a person we can, we can make a difference. And so, I mean, that was kind of, that was a big thing to kind of wrestle with was just the, the poverty aspect and coming home. I was away, you know, in Montana for three months and then India and Thailand for, uh, about two months or so. And just kind of, there's a, a re-entry culture shock from a trip that long mm-hmm , mm-hmm, where you're just like, you're like, I don't, I don't need a car.
Daniel (20:44):
I don't need these things. Why do I have to find a job job? You know, like Uhhuh, Jesus, Jesus didn't have a job. He didn't have a place to stay. And, you know, he was, he just got, you know, he, he, he did his thing and he impacted the world. Like, why can't I do that? You know? So it is just, it's a, it was a lot to, a lot to wrestle with, but sure. Um, but when I was in Thailand, so kind of, we can kind wrap up the story here when I was in Thailand was where I met my wife. And so when I was in, when I was in India, I had this sense and this feeling, and, uh, just felt like I was gonna meet somebody who was going to be a lifelong best friend of mine. And I had no idea that that person was going to be, uh, my wife, who was, who was there doing mission work and our paths crossed. And so I kind of, I came home and she, she helped me walk through all of that sort of stuff. And she had her own reentry mm-hmm , uh, things to, to go through too. So at least I had somebody to, um, to walk through with that. And she, she was she's a therapist. So that was helpful.
Gordon (21:37):
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, you know, it's, uh, as I think back at you were reminding me of kind of some of my trips to Honduras, and I can remember the first time that I came back from having gone down there. I remember somebody , somebody asked me I was working at the time, uh, for a funny thing. I was working for an agency at the time, and we actually worked with a lot of, a lot of poor families, um, in the United States, but it's a totally different kind of poverty when you go to a third world country like that. But I remember somebody asking me, well, how, how was your mission trip? And I just, just remember breaking down in tears just because it was such, it made such a huge impact. And, and just, just really, like you said, sensory overload at times.
Gordon (22:29):
And, um, yeah, but I think it also, you know, to kind of bring us full circle around to the whole kindness and compassion thing. I think everyone should give themselves the opportunity, the gift of doing some kind of work like that, where you're working with people. Yeah. Um, even if it's just, you know, even, even locally at doing like a habitat for humanity build or any of that sort of thing. Yeah. Where, where you're working with people that are struggling with things in their life, um, it is life changing to be able to just be alongside them through that journey.
Daniel (23:04):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's, I mean, this conversation is kind of challenging me all over again. Um, you know, the last few years I've really been focused on, on my business and also my mm-hmm , I got a five year old and a one year old, you know, so life is, is crazy. And, um, it's often hard to find ways to volunteer, but it's, it's so it's so important because we can get so focused on mm-hmm on life. And, you know, there's, there's nothing wrong with being focused on life, but there's a really, um, there's a gift that you receive that you just, you can't experience, uh, other than, than putting yourself out there. And mm-hmm, serving and just getting your eyes off yourself for just a little bit.
Gordon (23:45):
Right. Right. Well, Daniel, I, this has been a great conversation and, uh, I hopefully we'll be able to continue it again. I mean, this, uh, this is, I think the, the, exactly the kinda stuff that I, I wanna share with people on this podcast, tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they'd like to connect with you in some way.
Daniel (24:05):
Yeah, sure. You can find me, uh, at private practice, elevation.com and you can also just find me on Instagram, um, at Daniel fava, just do a search, uh, for my name and I would be happy to connect there as well.
Gordon (24:18):
Yes. Yes. And, and Daniel's got a wonderful, uh, for, for those out of you out there that are baby therapists, just a quick plug for Daniel, he's got a wonderful, uh, business and he's done, he did a lot to help us with our website and our own prac practice. And so that's his expertise and he knows what he's doing and he's got the heart for you.
Daniel (24:40):
thanks, Gordon. I appreciate that.
Gordon (24:41):
All right. Take care, Daniel.
Daniel (24:43):
Thanks.
Gordon (24:58):
Well, I just love having conversations like the one I had with Daniel. I, and, you know, I would really encourage you if you haven't really explored it is to look at how you can do maybe some volunteer or mission work or whatever you want to call that and helping people that are less fortunate, because I think one of the things that it does is it truly changes can truly change your life. I know for me, in my own story, when I went to Honduras, um, and it was really just after hearing someone speak at my church, uh, about their trips. And I went down in the context of going on a habitat for humanity, uh, trip, but it truly was life changing and really changed the trajectory of my life at that particular time. And really helped me explore what I was being called to do.
Gordon (25:49):
And just working with people that are, were struggling and it eventually led into my work as a therapist and all of that sort of thing. So, you know, I don't want to go into the whole long story there, but I would encourage you to, to maybe seek out opportunities to do work like that. Um, and I'm really appreciative to Daniel and I appreciate my relationship with him and the fact that he was willing to be vulnerable and talk about how his work in India really truly changed his life. So, um, yeah. So if you've got a story like this, you'd like to cha uh, to share love, to hear from you. And again, you can go over to kindness and compassion.com and, uh, go up to the contact us form and, um, O into the contact us page. I, and there is a form there that you can fill out to be a guest on the podcast and love to hear from you.
Gordon (26:47):
So, and also if you would like to support us in this work, consider becoming a patron. And if you become a patron, one thing, little perk there is that you could get some bling as I like to call it. There's, uh, there's a coffee mug, there's stickers. There's, t-shirts that sort of thing that you can get by becoming a patron. So take care folks, and look forward to being with you again in future episodes of the kindness and compassion podcast, Owen, and do take time to follow us wherever you might be listening to this and leave us a review and leave us a rating. Uh, that'll just help us get boosted up so other people can find this particular podcast. So take care folks and have a great rest of your week or weekend. Whenever you might be listening to this.

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L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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How To Have Healthy Relationships with Kindness & Compassion | K&C 15


Sometimes the people we are in close relationships with are the hardest to show kindness and compassion to. In this episode Gordon shares some of the research and science behind relationships.  It turns out that the key to healthy relationships is tied to recognizing interaction patterns, self-regulation, and curiosity. We can learn how to heal broken relationships and be more kind and compassionate in our key relationships. Listen in as Gordon draws from research and his years of experience in working with hundreds of couples as licensed marriage and family therapist. 

Why we hurt the ones we love

“Love hurts” is a common theme… A lot of songs about that! There are several hypothesis around why we tend to hurt those closest to us.  These include, but are not limited to:

      • We see in others similar faults to our own.
      • Out of a sense of control or retribution (“getting even”)
      • To gain attention or to engage the other person
      • As a form of self-sabotage or guilt; taking out our frustrations on others
      • No consequences for doing so; we get by with it
      • Being triggered by past emotional trauma.

What defines a healthy relationship

Although every relationship is unique, there are some characteristics of what healthy and lasting relationships look like. The research from Dr. John and Julie Gottman from the Gottman Institute reveal these characteristics of health relationships:

      • Over-all trust and commitment
      • An ability to manage and repair from conflicts
      • General sense of affection and admiration
      • Similar values and life dreams
      • Accepting the other’s influence
      • Knowing and understanding the other’s internal world; “what makes them tick”
      • Treating the internal world of the other with kindness and compassion

Patterns of Interactions

In my work with couples over the years, I often tell them, “I could really care less about what you are arguing about. But what I am interested in is HOW you argue.”  What I mean by that is the patterns of interactions and how people handle arguments is key to having a healthy relationship. 

After all, it is unrealistic to think that significant relationships will be conflict free. Every relationship has conflicts. The key to a healthy relationship is in developing healthy interaction patterns when there is conflict.

A good pattern of conflict management involves:

      • An ability of each person to self-regulate their own emotions. In other words, not letting the “anger thermometer” get too high.
      • Knowing when to table hot topics for both people to get a better perspective
      • A willingness to listen and truly hear out the other person
      • Getting curious about the other person’s internal world and experience
      • A willingness to accept the other person’s influence and do things their way
      • An ability to repair things when there has been something that hurts the other person
      • And finally, a willingness to forgive and let go. Saying “I’m sorry I hurt you” goes a long way in healing things that have hurt.

 

Criticism and Defensiveness 

According to the Gottman’s’, one of the most common negative patterns couples can get into is a pattern of criticism and defensiveness. And if not corrected or changed, over time, it leads to “stone-walling” (avoiding the other person) and/or contempt in the relationship.  

The Gottman’s refer to these things as the “Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse” (Criticism, Defensiveness, Stonewalling, and Contempt).  And also according to the Gottman’s’ research, if these patterns are not corrected or changed, the relationship is doomed to end. Especially if there is a level of contempt in the relationship.

Self-Regulation

A big part of having healthy relationships is having people that are emotionally healthy themselves.  In other words when both people are able to manage their own emotions well, they can then handle the emotions of their partner better.  

Another way to think about it is, what is your part in it? In other words, being aware of how your own actions are contributing to the problems that are happening.

This is often referred to as emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is something that is learned as we grow up but can also be learned later in life.  It doesn’t mean that emotionally intelligent people never get angry or hurt, but they are able to self-regulate and keep themselves grounded and under control when it happens.

Repairing

As mentioned above, another key component of healthy relationships is a couple’s ability to repair things once there has been a conflict.  The Gottman’s refer to this as “turning toward each other” after a conflict.  This in and of itself is the opposite of stone-walling.  

Simply put, it is a willingness of both people to “kiss and make up” after there is a conflict or feelings are hurt. This requires both people to be vulnerable with each other and know that the other will treat that vulnerability with kindness and compassion.

Play Nice

And finally, as simple as it sounds, having a healthy relationship involves both people having some affection and positive regard for each other.  They are simply nice and caring to each other.  In other words, show some kindness and compassion in your relationships.  It is the stuff of love and vulnerability. 

Conclusion

Healthy relationships are built on kindness and compassion.  After all, if you think about it, most of the problems and conflicts we have in life involve other people.  Knowing how to self-regulate and repair when there are conflicts goes a long way in helping people have healthy relationships. Also a willingness to trust and stay committed to the relationship.  After all, the #1 predictor of relationships succeeding, is a willingness of both people to stick it out with each other. And finally, the sign of a healthy relationship is when two people know the other’s internal world well and treating it with kindness and compassion.

Resources Mentioned

Attachment Theory – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

The Gottman Institute- https://www.gottman.com/

Sound Relationship House – https://www.gottman.com/blog/what-is-the-sound-relationship-house/

“Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse” – https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/

Dr. Susan Johnson – https://drsuejohnson.com/

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Gordon (00:00):
You know, in my work as a marriage and family therapist, um, I, I enjoy more than anything working with couples. It's, uh, kind of, kind of the niche I've car carved out for myself. I do work with individuals on, you know, various mental health issues, but also do a lot of work with couples. And one of the things, um, that, um, has, has pulled me into working with couples is really a lot of that desire that I have to really help people sort through the conflicts that they have, and really figure out how to have more meaningful relationships. You know, our primary, you know, as adults really most, all of us seek out a partner in life. It's kind of built into our DNA, you know, from the time that we're born, we have this innate desire to connect with others. And one of the things that's interesting is, um, you know, the, the, the divorce rates in the United States kind of hover around 50%.
Gordon (01:02):
So 50% of all first marriages, I think it's getting a little better. I haven't gone back and looked at the statistics lately, but, um, 50% of all first marriages, um, end in divorce. And that's kind of a, a sad prospect. And probably I think for some folks that are cynical, they'd say, well, why even bother if it's that bad of a, that bad of a statistic, but the truth of the matter is we need other people. And like I said, just said, is that it's kind of wired into our DNA. We want to seek out others, you know, from the time we're born, we have to connect. You know, if you think about a little baby and the need that a baby has to be held to be nurtured, to be loved to for the parents, to look into the baby's eyes and, and give that affection, if we don't do that, the baby ends up suffering from that.
Gordon (02:02):
Um, so we really need to have relationships. And the other thing that's an interesting kind of phenomenon is you look at the number of people that are out there that have either gone through, uh, are in their second or third marriages. Uh, and so you, you logic would kind of tell you that, okay, if I had bad experience with relationships, uh, then I, I don't want to try to do that again. I should, you know, just stay on my own, but we, we don't do that. We very quickly seek out others to be in relationship with. So it's a really, really, if you think about it, it's really a primary need we have as human beings is to be in those close intimate relationships. Not only when I say intimacy, uh, not only mean like ULA LA intimacy, but kind of intimacy of, of emotion.
Gordon (03:00):
And that's really the foundation of a healthy relationship. So what I'd like to talk with you about is to think about, um, what makes up a healthy relationship. And it turns out that there's been a lot of research into this, about what, what constitutes a, a healthy relationship and a lot of what I'm gonna talk about in here. I wanna give, uh, credit where credit is due. And this comes from the research of the Gottman's John and Julie Gottman are a husband and wife research team that have done over 40 years of research into marriage and relationships. And, um, I'm gonna have a link here to their Institute. The got Gottman Institute will be here in the show notes, but John and Julie Gottman, what they did is they, they took couples and they wanted to really kind of figure out what makes a relationship last and what makes for successful marriages.
Gordon (03:58):
And so, um, what they did is they took couples and they did this with both heterosexual couples and gay couples. And, um, they, they just put 'em in this, this retreat center called the love lab that they, they created, and they would have graduate students just observe what was going on as couples interacted with each other. And they would have, 'em wired up to look at heart rate and brainwaves and all of that sort of thing. And what they quickly discovered was that there were certain patterns that emerged as they watched couples interact with each other. And some of the patterns that they noticed were, were healthy patterns, and the couples were doing well with each other, but then there were the other couples that were, they noticed very quickly that if, as they watched them interact, that things weren't going well. And, but what they did in their study too, was to follow these couples over several years.
Gordon (04:53):
And the ones that they noticed that had the unhealthy patterns were doomed to fail. And I'm gonna talk a little bit more about those patterns here in a minute, but one of, one of the things I wanted to think about first is why is it that we tend to hurt the ones we love so to speak? And there's a lot of hypothesis around that. And some of the, some of it maybe points to the fact that with those that we're, we're closest to, we can, we tend to be, let our guard down a little bit more. In other words, we not always on our best behavior. And, and part of that is, is that we can get by with it. But also I think it's just, um, has to do with how we attach with other people, um, not to get too far off on this whole, um, psychological lesson, but there are some things that are both, uh, there's this thing called attachment theory, where it looks at how we bond with other people.
Gordon (05:55):
And so there are healthy attachments and unhealthy attachments. There are people that have kind of, of avoidant attachments. There are people that have kind of insecure attachments or anxious attachments. Again, not gonna go too far down that rabbit trail, but I'll try to put some links in the, uh, show notes here. That'll tell you more about that. But the other thing that we have to think about when, why we tend to hurt peop those that we're closest to, I think when we're close to people, we notice in them maybe faults of our own. And so we notice those faults that we own, we have for ourselves, and we kind of take it out on the other person. And I know I've been guilty of that in the past in relationships and will, will, will tend to be critical of somebody else's fault when we really know, uh, for ourselves that we contain that own fault, that, that, that same fault, uh, the other thing too, is, is that when you've got situations where people have gone through trauma, or they've gone through maybe raised in a family where there was a lot of conflict, um, being in conflict with their spouse or their, the person that they're in a committed relationship with, uh, that can be kind of triggering for 'em at times.
Gordon (07:16):
And so all of those kinds of things kinda lead to why we tend to hurt those that are closest to us. Um, the other, the other thing is that, um, we, um, might, you know, again, being human, you know, when somebody makes us mad or gets us riled up about something we might want to try to get even, or make, have some sort of retribution with that. And so that's another reason why maybe sometimes we hurt those that are closest to us, but one of the things I wanna start with is really looking at what defines a healthy relationship and then kinda work backwards from that of, you know, what, what we need to look for in our relationships in order to make them healthy. The thing that really, um, and again, this I'm, I'm borrowing from the Gottman's on this and really some of their research and what they kind of discovered as they observed couples over over the years.
Gordon (08:17):
Number one is just an overall commitment to the relationship is one of the characteristics of a commit of a healthy relationship. And along with that is trust. And the Gottman came up with something called the, the sound relationship house, which is a graphic they created. And again, I'll put some links in here in the show notes. So you can take a look at that, but the two things that you have to have for any healthy relationship is a commitment to stick it out. And again, uh, that's the, the number one predictor of what makes, uh, relationship successful is both parties being willing to just stick it out with each other through good or bad. And, you know, when you think about most of us in our marriage vows, along the way, those of us that are in married or in a committed relationship, when you make those vows, usually there's something in there about, for better or for worse.
Gordon (09:18):
So folks that really buy into that and stick it out with each other, um, you know, will have a lasting relationship. Now that doesn't mean a person needs to go through a relationship that where there's some abuse going on, or there's some really bad things going on in the relationship, but just a willingness to stick it out through the tough times, goes a long way. And then also obviously trust, you know, it's really helpful to be able to trust your spouse and to be able to know that they're gonna be there for you, and that they're not gonna betray you in some way. And this is usually in my work with, with couples, uh, over the years, usually this is the reason that they're coming to see me is that, that in some way, trust has been broken. Um, and it doesn't necessarily mean there's been an affair or any, any sort of infidelity, but maybe there's some sort of emotional trust that's been broken, or maybe there is just a betrayal, either big betrayals with a small B or betrayals with a big B, uh, that go on.
Gordon (10:23):
And that, that might be that they have hurt the other one's feelings in some way, or they have been snubbed in some way, or they've been belittled or criticized in some way, all the way up to kind of the big guns where somebody's maybe had an affair, that sort of thing. So you've gotta have that trust in a relationship. You've got to know that your partner has your back and that the person that's in it with you for the long haul is there for you. The other, the other thing that makes up, uh, makes for a healthy relationship is an ability to handle conflict in the relationship. Um, obviously, you know, there are gonna be conflicts in relationship. I don't know of any, any relationship that doesn't have conflicts, but what makes for a healthy relationship is for the couple or the, to, to be able to manage those conflicts well, and then repair any damage that might be done from that conflict.
Gordon (11:29):
So, um, that that's at a, a very key component. And again, when I see couples usually that are coming to me for therapy, it's usually because they have kind of come to a roadblock block or an impase in their ability to handle conflict with each other. And then some of the things that are just kind of maybe kind of common sense over what makes for a healthy relationship is, um, obviously there, there should be in a healthy relationship, just a general sense of affection and, and love and admiration for their partner. And again, that's kind of common sense there with that one, most couples that have a healthy relationship share very similar values and life dreams with each other. In other words, they're on the same page about around that. That doesn't mean that, you know, I have had seen, um, uh, very healthy couples that might have maybe different religious or political views.
Gordon (12:30):
I've known couples that maybe come from different faith traditions and they respect that in each other and that sort of thing. But so, but they, anyway, there's a mutual respect around all of that. And part, part of it that goes into that, that mutual respect is a couple's ability to accept each other's influence on things. So in other words, to be able to know how to compromise and to be able to not necessarily do it my way all the time, but being able to be, um, take some joy and being able to do it things the way their, their partner wants to do things. The other thing is, um, that really kind of defines a healthy relationship is for both people to know what makes up the other's internal world. In other words, they really understand what makes the other person tick. They understand that internal world, what motivates them, what they're, what they're ashamed of, what they're proud of every, you know, it's kinda like there, there are in, in some ways, a way to put that is that there are really no secrets there.
Gordon (13:39):
They know, uh, both, uh, they, they know their partner well, and they love them wart and all so to speak. And, and really ultimately they treat that internal world with a great deal of kindness and compassion. Uh, and so that's a, at a very important key key component of having a relation, healthy relationship. And so what happens when things go awry, those are kind of the things that make up a healthy relationship. And again, this is based on not only the re research of John and Julie Gottman, but there's some other researchers out there. One in particular is sued Johnson, um, who is also, um, a researcher into marriage and family and marriage and, and, uh, couples and committed relationships. And I'll talk a little bit more about them here in a moment, but anyway, one of the things I tell couples when they come to see me as a therapist is, um, and I say this kind of tongue in cheek, but then again, it's kind of, uh, kind of serious in that I really could care less what they're arguing about.
Gordon (14:48):
In other words, I, you know, the topic doesn't matter to me what it is they're arguing about, but what I'm really interested in is how they argue, or in other words, the patterns of interactions. And that is where we can make a difference in our relationships when we understand how we interact with each other and how it goes down. You know, I mentioned, um, I mentioned, uh, Sue Johnson, uh, and one of the things that she mentions is is that we can, um, couples can get into what she refers to as demon dialogues. In other words, when it starts, it starts and we're on. And so the, the things spiral out of control, uh, once those kinds of things happen. And so when a couple things about repairing things, they need to start with how they interact with each other and understanding the patterns and how things go down.
Gordon (15:50):
And so a good pattern of interaction for couples is an ability, number one, to be able to self regulate. And this is where knowing yourself well comes into play. And also being brutally honest with yourself about how you might be contributing to the conflict in the relationship. Our tendency as human beings is we want to blame the other for our problems, but when we can really begin to look at ourselves after all, if you think about it, and this is a truth, is that the only person we can change is who ourself. And so being aware of that, as you go into thinking about handling conflict with your partner goes a long way. And so, as you think about how you might interact with your partner or that the, the person that you're in a relationship with is being able to really, again, ask that question, what is my part in this?
Gordon (16:51):
And what can I do to change how I am interacting with them? That's gonna help the conflict go better. And, and part of that is, again, um, as I've mentioned in previous episodes is really knowing yourself well and being mindful. Um, it involves some emotional intelligence. And what I mean by that is, is that, you know, yourself, well, you know how to regulate your own emotions. Well, in other words, if you're getting angry or getting upset or getting anxious, you know how to regulate that within yourself, it's referred to a lot of times as an internal locus of control. And so being able to, to hone that skill and hone those skills of being able to regulate yourself well, when you're upset or when you're angry, or when you're feeling anxious, or when you're feeling any of the negative emotions, being able to handle that well is gonna go a long way in helping you navigate things in your relationships.
Gordon (17:56):
Uh, particularly when there's conflict. The other thing about managing conflict and in relationships is learning how to be curious about what's going on with your partner. Um, you know, our, our tendency is to get on the defensive when there's conflict. And I'm gonna talk about in just a moment, just the typical pattern that happens in relationships, around, um, criticism and defensiveness, but being, being able to recognize when you're getting defensive of being able to kind of change the course of things at that point. So being able to say, okay, I need to take a break here, um, because I'm starting to get angry around these things. And I, I love you. And I want to be able to back off from this a little bit, so we can talk, talk about this kinda rationally or more at an even keel, because if I keep getting angry, I'm gonna not listen.
Gordon (18:51):
And that's a, another thing just as a side note here, when we get emotionally flooded with things. In other words, the anger thermometer starts going up. It really debilitates our ability to hear and listen because our amygdala, that part in our brain that is there to protect us, kind of takes over. And we go into fight or flight mode and when a couple starts to escalate and they get into that fight or flight mode, and the amygdala is taking over. There is no dialogue anymore. They are just going at each other and they're not hearing each other. And so that, that's a point at which they do need to back off from things. Now that doesn't mean they need to avoid the, the topic, but be able to self regulate, bring themselves down to a more even keel where they're not angry and then come back and talk about their problems.
Gordon (19:49):
Um, that goes a long way in being able to manage conflict. Well, the other thing about being able to manage conflict well is knowing how to repair things. And, um, that is a key feature in healthy couples. Is, is that when they do have a conflict, they maybe have a row, or they're an argument. They come back to each other and they learn how to turn towards each other, uh, after that conflict to make amends, to repair things, to kiss and make up, as they say, uh, being able to do that is a key component of having a relationship, uh, rather a healthy relationship. So let's, let's dive a little deeper end of how conflicts start and how, um, the patterns that we typically see. And again, this is based, a lot of this is based on the research of the Gottman's, you know, when the Gottman's were observing couples.
Gordon (20:50):
One of the things that they noticed is that if they saw a particular conflict pattern in the relationship, if those things were not corrected and that what they referred to this as is the, the four horsemen of the apocalypse and what those four components of that, if they saw this going on in the relationship, and if it wasn't corrected, the, the relationship was doomed to fail, and they could predict this with 90% accuracy, if a couple was gonna make it or not based on these four components of what they call the four horseman of the apocalyp of the apocalypse. And those four things are criticism, defensiveness. Another one is stonewalling, and then the fourth one is contempt. And so typically how this, how this plays out is that a couple will get into a pattern of criticism and defensiveness. And our, our tendency as human beings is, is that when we feel criticized by someone, particularly if we feel like that criticism is unjust or is not warranted, we go on the defensive.
Gordon (22:01):
And so when couples start into that pattern of criticism and defensiveness, that's when things start to spiral out of control. Um, as I mentioned earlier, Sue Johnson calls these demon dialogues when a couple starts into this, you know, somebody says something that is critical of the other, or is maybe mean-spirited, um, the other person gets defensive and it's on. And so that's when things start to spiral out of control. And so, you know, that it's criticism, if it comes out of your mouth, is you always, are you never, and this is something I point out in couples is to be aware of what you're saying to your partner really matters. It's not what we say. It's how we say it. You know, 80% of communication is nonverbal. So what's not, it's not the words that we say that matter, but it's the tone in which we use.
Gordon (23:02):
And also the body language that we use. So to, to be able to counteract, um, criticism, defensiveness, number one with criticism is a, is learning to phrase things in a way that are, make it, you're making a request of your partner rather than offering criticism. So being able to say things like, you know, when such and such happens, I really would prefer that you do blah, blah, blah. And that sounds like a weird kind of way of communicating, but rather than starting out with, well, you always, or you never, you never picked up your dirty clothes. You always leave your socks on the floor. Uh, being able to say instead, you know, it really bothers me when the socks are left on the floor. Do you mind being more mindful of picking up your socks? Totally different way to start a conversation. And then to counteract defensiveness, as I said earlier, is to approach things with curiosity, when you notice that you're getting defensive is to kind of remind yourself or be mindful of getting curious about what is going on with the other person, what is going on with your, um, with your, with your partner?
Gordon (24:16):
Um, you know, an example would be, you know, you, you kind, you kinda spoke to me kind of harshly there. What's going on that you're, you're talking to me in that way, because it, it really kind of hurt that you, you said it that way. So again, it's kind of, overcommunication in things. The other, the other parts of, of the four horsemen of the apocalypse are stonewalling. And that is when we just avoid our partner or avoid interacting with our partner. And that's, that's what the criticism and defensiveness pattern leads to if it's not corrected. And then after if the stonewalling and the criticism and the defensiveness is not changed, that leads to contempt. It leads to a couple that gets to where they just really don't like each other. They really don't want to be around each other. And the Gottman say that when a couple reaches that point, really the relationship is over at that point. And, um, it takes a lot to repair a couple when things are at the contempt level. So that's, that's something to be aware of. If you notice that you're feeling that way about your partner, I would really encourage you to get into some therapy to begin to deal with that not only individual therapy, but also couples therapy to begin to work on that.
Gordon (25:45):
Well, I know we've covered a lot here in this short episode, but just to kind of quickly recap one of the things, uh, that we need to really focus on when we think about exercising, kindness and compassion in our relationships, is to be able to be aware of the patterns of interaction. You know, couples can get into some bad habits around how they interact with each other, uh, being aware of when you're being critical of your partner and being able to, um, learn how to, when you feel criticized to be aware of not going on the defensive too quickly, because things tend to spiral outta control when, when a, when a couple starts
Gordon (26:29):
Into that
Gordon (26:29):
Pattern of criticism
Gordon (26:30):
And defensiveness.
Gordon (26:32):
And the other thing is, is to be able to allow yourself to be vulnerable with, with your partner. Um, as it mentioned already, vulnerability is the key to having a meaningful relationship, uh, of being able to let your guard down and let each other into your inner world, and then treating that inner world with kindness and compassion. Uh, that's a key, those are key components to having a healthy relationship, one that is built on kindness and compassion. And so the other, the other thing too, that I mentioned as a recap here is the importance of repairing things. When you've, when you've had a conflict, when you've gotten angry with each other or any of that sort of thing, is being able to go back and repair and make amends for the hurt that has happened. And then also, uh, continuing to build those, those lifelong commitments through shared meaning and being able to look at your life dreams and being able to, you know, think ahead in, in terms of that being a positive, uh, kind of experience for, for both people to be able to look at their life, uh, look at what their common bond is and continuing to build on that.
Gordon (27:55):
And, um, and finally, I would say if you, if you find that you're getting stuck with some of these things that I mentioned here in this episode, I would encourage you to seek out, uh, professionals, maybe to get some help with that, um, that, you know, certainly you could find, um, a licensed marriage and family therapist. And I would, I will say this when you, if you seek out therapy, find someone that, um, is trained in working with couples because that's working with couples is different than working with individuals. And I think it's important to have someone that will, uh, knows what they're doing just around, uh, their training and that sort of thing. Um, also I mentioned in this episode, the resources, again, those links will be here in the show notes and the show summary and, um, to the Gottman Institute, and then also some resources from Dr. Sue Johnson that I mentioned in here as well. So hopefully you find this helpful and, um, hope good luck with your relationships and, uh, do treat each other with greater kindness and compassion.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Dawn Gabriel | Finding Deeper Meaning and Redemption Through Soul Care | K&C 14


In this episode Dawn Gabriel, LPC joins Gordon for a deep dive into redemption and finding your soul through spirituality, the divine, or the universe. Dawn, a licensed professional counselor and the person behind the Faith Fringes Podcast, opens the show by being vulnerable and speaking about the divorce she experienced at the age of twenty-five. Then, she explains how the divorce changed her relationship with faith and God. Tune in as we chat about the importance of finding a sense of purpose on your journey, the problem with short-term pleasure, and how to express meaning within our lives.

Meet Dawn Gabriel

Dawn Gabriel, LPC

Dawn Gabriel is the founder and CEO of Authentic Connections Counseling Center and host of Faith Fringes podcast.

Dawn creates engaging space for fellow clinicians and healers to look deeper into their spirituality and faith. She has about 20 years of diverse experience in the clinical mental health world and currently focuses on helping therapists engage their spirituality in new ways in order to cultivate a deeper and authentic connection with God. Dawn hosts Soul Care Retreats that are exclusively for therapists as she believes that we need our own sacred place to slow down and let go of all that we hold in order to continue our transformative work with others.

Dawn is a chai and wine connoisseur, a hiking trail enthusiast, a wife, and mom of two boys who all love living and adventuring in Colorado.

Free Giveaway – Spiritual Reflections Course – https://faithfringes.com/spiritual-reflections-course/
FREE 8 week email course to engage more of your own faith journey from a different perspective. Included is a journaling workbook to guide you through exercises that will help you explore what you were brought up to believe, including disillusion and hurt, while also cultivating a deeper and authentic connection with God.

Dawn’s Divorce and A Story of Redemption

Dawn went through a divorce at the age of twenty-five. She lived in a conservative culture where you don’t get a divorce, no matter what. Well, Dawn found out that her husband cheated on her. Unfortunately, Dawn did not get positive support from her church on her journey. It was the antithesis of kindness and compassion. Now, Dawn has been remarried for thirteen years; it has been her story of redemption. Something that has helped Dawn on her journey is a particular book; she recommends reading The Relentless Tenderness of Jesus by Brennan Manning.

How You Can Connect and Communicate With God

Growing up, Dawn was conservative. The churches she went to taught a lot about following the rules rather than speaking about what your relationship should look like with God. When Dawn got a divorce, she thought she was committing the biggest sin. She believed God would be condemning her during one of the worst pains of Dawn’s life. Eventually, Dawn realized she shouldn’t be thinking about what she could do for God. Instead, Dawn started to focus on how she could connect with God. Overall, think about where you find peace when communicating with God.

Ways To Find Faith In Your Daily Life

There tends to be a deeper place within our souls. Whether you have a traditional faith or not, there’s still this element that you have to ground in something bigger than yourself. The way you are doing life may not be working anymore, and you may crave something more profound. If you are on a journey of self-awareness, you may want to find faith in spirituality, the divine, or the universe. When we don’t have meaningful things in our lives, we will quickly substitute with pleasure. Things that provide us pleasure are usually short-lived and hollow. All in all, there is something bigger than ourselves, and it’s time to connect with that.

Creating A Sense of Purpose To Give Us Deeper Meaning

We should have a more profound sense of purpose and meaning, they are basic human needs. Sometimes we don’t find that more profound sense of purpose until we meet our other basic human needs. However, it’s still critical to wrestling with your sense of purpose. If you don’t find meaning, you may try and fill that void in other ways. Those other ways will not be as fulfilling as finding your purpose. We need to find ways to express meaning through kindness and compassion. That way, we can discover life-long peace, forgiveness, and purpose.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Whitney Owens | The Challenge of Caring | K&C 13


In this episode, Gordon has a conversation with Whitney Owens about being a caregiver and living into kindness and compassion through those challenges.  Whitney opens the show by talking about the book, Discernment: Reading the Signs of Daily Life by Henri J. M. Nouwen. Whitney reveals the most significant lesson she learned from that book and how it has informed her life as a mother. Then, Whitney dives straight into the importance of self-care and how it’s an essential piece of kindness and compassion. Tune in as we chat about savoring the moment, mindfulness, and creating consistent daily habits around self-care.

Meet Whitney Owens

Whitney Owens, LPC

Whitney Owens is a licensed professional counselor, group practice owner, and faith-based private practice consultant. She is located in Savannah, Georgia, where she manages a private pay group practice with 10 plus clinicians. Along with running her practice, she consults practice owners around the country on how to start and grow a successful faith-based practice. She has spoken at numerous events such as both the Georgia and Maryland annual professional counselors conference as well as trainings for Florida’s Counseling Association.

In addition to practice consulting, Whitney is an Enneagram enthusiast and offers workshops to business owners on using the Enneagram to help run their practice. In her free time, Whitney enjoys spending time with her husband and two girls, running, reading, and relaxing in the backyard.

To find out more about Whitney, visit her website: whitneyowens.com.  Or you can visit Whitney’s practice website:  https://watersedgecounseling.com/

How You Will Learn More About Who You Really Are

Whitney recommends reading the book Discernment: Reading the Signs of Daily Life. Spiritual leader and counselor Henri J. M. Nouwen wrote about the essential question asked by every Christian and seeker: What should I do with my life? Nouwen was a successful professor and writer. He left it all behind to care for people who have nothing; that’s where he learned everything about himself. This is the definition of kindness and compassion. Unfortunately, this is where Whitney struggles. Whitney can accomplish all these things professionally and personally. However, what is she doing if she can’t be available to her daughter?

The Importance of Support When It Comes To Self-Care

It’s really easy to get down on yourself. You will make mistakes and do the best you can; that’s all you can give. Whitney says it’s essential to reach out to other people and ask for help. For instance, Whitney was reluctant to accept help from others when it came to taking care of her child. You have to learn how to trust other people, or you’re going to wear yourself out. It takes a village to raise a child, so remember to find other people and asking for help. Support is the most significant self-care gift that you can receive. To maintain self-care, you have to be able to take a step back when you need to.

Savor The Moment As Part of Your Mindfulness Routine

Another thing that helps Whitney on her journey is mindfulness. We need to be mindful of the moment we have with our loved ones. Whitney’s little girl loves to snuggle. Find special moments with your loved ones; it’s imperative. Love is when we take moments, sit in them, and enjoy them. For instance, sometimes, Whitney has to be up in the middle of the night to get her daughter back to sleep. Instead of feeling irritated that she’s awake in the middle of the night, Whitney will savor the moment; she knows these precious times will not last forever.

Create Daily Habits Around Self-Care & Be Consistent

Find things you can do for yourself, like hobbies or exercise. It should be something that you’re excited and happy to do. For example, Whitney loves to run, so she sets aside time each day to get out and run. Find small things that you can be consistent about. It should be something that you do for yourself. We all need to create daily rituals for ourselves to keep ourselves grounded. Movement is a way to clear your head, meditate, and pray. Sometimes you’ll get your best ideas through movement. Overall, ensure you are consistent when it comes to your self-care habits.

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L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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Jessica Tappana | When Life Gets Heavy… | K&C 12


In this episode, Gordon talks with Jessica Tappana, LCSW about what we can do when faced with hard and heavy things in life. Jessica opens the show by speaking about how spring can be a heavy time for many of us. In general, the world needs more kindness and compassion; however, we only have so much energy in the day. We can choose to be upset about something or find ways to be compassionate about them. Then, Jessica dives into her passion for DBT and how it has helped Jessica learn more about mindfulness. Tune in as we chat about texting gratitude to others, avoiding negativity bias, and teaching our children about kindness.

Meet Jessica Tappana

Jessica Tappana is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker who works with teens and adults from all walks of life who have been through something that feels overwhelming. Her goal is to help people stop dwelling on negative thoughts and start helping them get back to living life.

“I received a bachelor degree in Social Work from the University of Missouri and then spent a couple of years gaining experience in the field of mental health. I returned to school and earned my Masters of Social Work from the University of New England with a clinical focus in 2012. My mental health experience has ranged from working at Fulton State Hospital to a school with students who had significant emotional and behavioral needs. Everywhere I have worked, I have brought a focus on evidence based counseling practices and a commitment to helping people face and overcome the greatest stressors of their lives.”

You can find Jessica at:  aspirecounselingmo.com/jessica-tappana-msw-lcsw

Find Ways To Look At Situations With Compassion

There’s so much heaviness in the world. When spring comes around, many of us can feel it. People are tired people, and everyone has gone through this rough winter. It’s so easy to focus on that heaviness. We talk about self-care all the time; we’re all doing our best—the world in general needs more kindness and compassion. We only have so much emotional and mental energy in the day. There are many things you can choose to be upset about. Instead, you need to find ways to look at situations with as much compassion as possible.

How DBT Helps With Mindfulness and Re-Centering

DBT stands for dialectical behavior therapy, which was developed in 1993. When Jessica was first introduced to the practice, she was amazed. DBT helped Jessica learn about living in the moment and mindfulness. Plus, DBT is excellent for looking at and normalizing having big feelings. We all have triggers in our lives that will make us feel stressed. DBT is all about having those big feelings and coming back to mindfulness, deep breathing, and re-centering.

Texting Gratitude To Others & Sending Kindness Into The World

Jessica had a client with suicidal thoughts. These thoughts are much more common than we acknowledge or talk about. When the client had suicidal thoughts, they decided to text three people. The client would send texts about gratitude. Then, they would get lovely messages in return. If Jessica has a bad day, she will send something kind to another person. We tend to get focused on what we need from other people. Well, there is something to say about sending kindness into the world.

Ways To Stop Dwelling On Your Negative Thinking

We have a negativity bias. If twenty good things happen throughout the day and one bad thing, our brain tends to focus on the bad thing. Focusing on kindness and compassion will remind our brains that positive people are in our lives. If we can bring joy to others, it could completely change their day. You have no way of knowing how other people are feeling. Plus, being kind to other people will help your brain focus on something positive. Overall, express gratitude for bringing you out of your negativity.

Teaching Your Children About Kindness and Compassion

Kindness is one of Jessica’s core values. As Jessica raises children, she thinks about how to raise kind children. She always asks her children what they did today that was kind. Yes, it matters that they are doing well in school. However, Jessica wants her children to be kind and decent human beings at the end of the day. All of Jessica’s family members talk about what kind things they did today. Unfortunately, our brains can focus on negativity far too often. So, thinking about being kind and talking about kindness will help us focus on positivity and compassion.

Conclusion

Ultimately kindness is an intentional act.  And we can live into kindness by being more self-aware and mindful about our own triggers to things.   By being positive and looking for the good in things, we can call live into a life treats ourselves and others with kindness and compassion.

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Gordon (00:00):
Hello, everyone. And welcome again to the kindness and compassion podcast. And I'm, I'm so happy for you to get to know one of my good friends, one of my dear friends, Jessica Tepa and Jessica is another therapist and she is based in Missouri. So welcome Jessica to the podcast.
Jessica (00:19):
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and, um, I love what you're doing and just excited to be part of it.
Gordon (00:27):
Yes, yes. Thanks. And you know, when I, as I've said in previous episodes, I, you know, as I was conceptualizing putting this podcast together, Jessica was kind of on the front end of that and just, uh, Jessica and I are in a mastermind group together and I was sharing with them, their idea, and I got a lot of encouragement from her and the other members of, of the group, uh, to move forward with this. So Jessica's kind of been part of this to some degree on the, from the beginning stages, but, um, Jessica tell folks a little more about you and what you do. And, uh, then we'll jump into just talking about some of the things we were thinking about before we started recording.
Jessica (01:13):
Yeah. Um, I wear a lot of different hats. I am a, um, therapist, as you said, I own a group practice with about, uh, 10 clinicians now in Missouri. And, um, I have been doing that for, well, my daughter turns five next week and I hope it kind of on my mater leave, did a lot of the groundwork for it, with her. And so about five years, I also have another business where we help therapists around the country get their websites. So they show up on Google. And then, um, I would say my most important roles probably are that of mother and wife, um, at home.
Gordon (01:50):
Yes. Yes. It's, uh, I know that I get, uh, I'm privileged to get, to hear a lot of good family stories from Jessica and what's going on with their kids and that sort of thing. But you know, one of the things we were talking about is we, um, got ready to record today is just, um, as we're recording this where there's a lot of heaviness in the world, um, we're dealing with, um, the invasion of Ukraine from Russia. Um, that's on the front of burner. I think we're kind of moving out of the COVID pandemic to some degree. Um, you know, there's still pockets of it. And I know you guys were hit particularly hard there in Missouri with just a lot of people, not being vaccinated and, and all of that sort of thing. And then just, um, day to day life. Um, and so Jessica, as you, as you thought about this today, and I, I know you said there was something happening, happening there locally for you guys. So what's, what's been on your mind just around this topic.
Jessica (02:55):
Yeah, it does feel like there's so much heaviness in the world. And for some reason I feel like most Springs, we feel it in our practice, the therapists all are just saying like, we're just like, people are tired. People have gone through this, you know, rough winter, every winter feels rough. I think in its own way. I know we're getting snow again in a couple of days here, even though it's, you know, supposed to be nicer weather, that's just Missouri weather for you. Mm-hmm . Um, and so it feels like there's always this heaviness, but now, you know, yes. With, with COVID think goodness, our numbers are the best they've been in ages and are good. Um, but, but people have lost and people have had sickness and people have had all these changes to their life. And then with the things in Ukraine and yeah, there, there was an accident very near my house this morning that, um, you just think about all these, all these people affected by all of these things and, and there, and there is a heaviness and it's so easy to focus on that heaviness.
Jessica (03:52):
It really is. We see it with, um, with clients. We see it with even us as therapists who, you know, mm-hmm, , hopefully we all PR we talk about self-care all the time. We're all doing our best we can to, to practice self-care. Um, I see it with my children when I pick them up from school, they talk about, you know, the roughest parts of their day. And so, um, so yeah, I think the across the board, the world's needing a little bit more kindness. We need to be compassionate with, with how we hold each other. Um, I know, you know, I think I, my husband and I approach like road rage very differently. we we'll be, we'll be driving, you know, across the state to visit my sister and somebody will be driving very erratically and unsafely and he's, and he'll, you know, have some choice words because that's very annoying.
Jessica (04:36):
And my response is, well for all, you know, they just found out that their loved one is in the hospital, potentially not going to make it through the day. And they're going to say goodbye. And it, it, it's kind of this thing where he is like, oh, oh, what can I say to that? Where we have this, this interaction between us, where I'm like, yes, we can get super dysregulated about the person that cut us off, because that is really frustrating at the same time. I'm like I only have so much emotional and mental energy in a day. And there's so much that I can choose to be upset about or not choose just because it's that big that it's going to affect me. That I'm like, if we, I, I often feel like I almost need, it's not one. I almost need to like, find those ways to view situations as compassionately as I can and look for the, and even though, you know, chances are in that situation and like the, the bad driver I'm probably completely wrong and he probably is just a jerk, but I'm never gonna see him again. And so if I can let go of my negative emotion by assuming the best about him, then, um, for me and my own personal distress, it goes down.
Gordon (05:39):
Yes, yes. And I know, I know for you, Jessica, part of your specialty is working with folks. You use the term emotionally dysregulated. And so, uh, for folks that might not be therapists and all of that sort of thing, you wanna talk about maybe a little bit about what that looks like, because I think this, this really leads into, as folks have heard on this podcast previously, just thinking about, um, mindfulness and being able to manage our own emotions well is important. So talk a little bit more about kind of the work you do as far as your specialty and that sort of thing.
Jessica (06:19):
Yeah. So I like to say I was D B T born and raised as a therapist. So DBT stands for dialectical behavior therapy, which was, uh, developed in 1993 to work with, uh, or the book the main book was published, um, then, um, by Marshall and Ahan and was developed for people with really extreme emotions, really big feelings. I like to think of it. And mm-hmm, , you know, for research purposes, she had to put some labels on. So she started it looking at people who were chronically suicidal, who thought about, um, taking measures to in their life prematurely or who had chronic self harm or what we call borderline personality disorder. Um, but when I was first introduced to this back in 2008,
Jessica (07:03):
Um, I was amazed. I was like, these are like, it, it taught mindfulness. And I'm like, this is a fantastic thing. I didn't know all of my anxiety wasn't related to, you know, wasn't related to this. And so even I started, you know, using these pieces components of what I learned professionally to help, to help live in the moment to help use, to use skills and how I went about my day. And so, um, so I think that everything I learned there, um, what I learned is we all have some level of emotional dysregulation or big, big responses to feelings or big swings in our mood. We all handle them differently. Um, but really I think that these approaches, these ways of looking and normalizing, having big feelings applies to all of us. And so much of my career was spent working with people who did chronically self harm, or that maybe had, um, had behave, you know, had such strong emotions that it came out as aggression or these kinds of really extreme behaviors.
Jessica (07:59):
Um, and as I've gone through my career, I've worked then with people with maybe less obvious emotion, emotion, emotional dysregulation mm-hmm . But what I found is that, um, that we all have it to some degree, we all have these things, these triggers in our life that cause us to feel much more distressed than they may make someone else next to us feel, um, or maybe more of an emotional response than we want to or think we quote unquote should have. Um, and so by when I talked about emotional dysregulation, yes, I could mean, you know, those really big things that lead someone to aggression, but it also could just be, you know, this morning, um, I saw that, you know, I was notified that there was a crash. I don't know who it was, probably nobody I know, but I had this big response personally of like, that was triggering for me. I became dysregulated and had to do some mindfulness, some deep breathing and kind of reentering that mm-hmm um, that, yeah. You know, get myself back to my wise mind back to my center so that I could, um, go about my day and be less impacted.
Gordon (08:59):
Yes. Yes. And I think it, you, you know, one of the things about that is, is that, um, when I think about just any of us being emotionally dysregulated or in any sort of emotional distress, we come, we become very self focused and it's like, our world just gets really small at that point. So Jessica, you were sharing with me earlier, a story just about working with a, a client that was just really struggling with suicidal thoughts and, and that sort of thing. And being able to incorporate some kindness and compassion kind of practices with them really made kind of a difference for them. You don't wanna say more? Tell, tell us more about that or tell us that story rather.
Jessica (09:45):
Yeah, I think it was a huge turning point. So I had a client once who had a history of having these, um, suicidal thoughts, these thoughts about, you know, is life really worth living and all the things that come after that, which by the way, um, for anybody out there who kind of, hasn't given a thought, I think that those thoughts are much more common than we as a society often acknowledge or talk about. I think that, that, that, that many, many, many people have those have those moments, but this client had had maybe more of those moments or more intense than a lot of people. And, um, and the loved ones in their life. Hadn't always really known how to respond or hadn't responded in a way that felt very helpful. And so we, um, with most of my clients, again, I think this stuff is very common that people have these moments.
Jessica (10:30):
I'm always talking about, what's your plan gonna be? How are you going to, how are you going to handle it when these thoughts do pop up? And so this client came up with this idea that they would text three people each time they had these intense thoughts. And, um, instead of saying, I need help or what I need from them, they did that outer focus. And instead it said, I appreciate this about you. Thank you for helping you with this yesterday. You, I hope you know, how amazing you are in X, Y, Z way. And what they found is, you know, not everybody responded, not everybody responded quickly. It didn't always, but they immediately felt like they had done something to help other people that was good for them. And the really incredible thing was often the response. Eventually whenever somebody checked their messages was a nice message back.
Jessica (11:17):
That was, they, you know, the kindness that they received just by trying to spread kindness to the world in their own moment of distress, mm-hmm was empowering. And I so often think about that and I've shared that and how other clients do it. Um, and even, I, you know, if I've had a bad day been like, I'm gonna follow my client's examples, they're genius, mm-hmm , and we'll send, you know, just a kind word out to another person, because like you said, we have this tendency to get very focused on, on what we need. And sometimes we even look to other people for that validation and, and it's great when we can find it. But, um, but there's something to be said for, for sending kindness into the world, in our own, in our own moments that can often that kindness can often multiply in how it returns. And I think, um, I don't know. I was, I thought that was such a great idea, but it was such a different approach and such an effective approach to changing their own mood and getting the support they needed, um, in a little bit different way.
Gordon (12:14):
Right, right. Yeah. I think it's, uh, it's, it's absolutely. Um, one, one to me, one of the core practices of kindness and compassion is, is gratitude of being able to look at what you have rather than you don't have. And then I think what, in, in this example of being able to show gratitude to others, um, it, it is just a kind and compassionate thing to do, and that it has this, this ability to allow us to connect and also be more, um, more, again, to same, same words, kind of grounded in the present, as opposed to getting totally inwardly focused and, and bogged down into something that has a lot of anxiety with it, or a lot of depression with it. And all of that sort of thing, which at least in my view, when we get into a state of depression, we are really very past focused and with anxiety we're very future focused. And so being able to stay grounded in the present is, um, is a much better place to be and much more manageable.
Jessica (13:28):
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that, um, that we have this negativity bias. We have this tendency to focus on, you know, 20 good things happening today, but one bad thing happens. Our brain will latch onto that bad thing and ruminate about it. And so when we're focused on being kind and compassionate and supporting other people and expressing our gratitude, it's this, it's, it's also just a reminder to our brains that like there are positive people in our life. There are things that we, that, that bring us joy. And, um, and you know, if we can bring that joy to somebody else, if you're sending out these nice kind messages, you don't know what somebody else is going through, you don't know if they might be having the same heaviness and you have no way of knowing that. And so you're one little bright spot in kindness that you throw out there may turn their day around, but even if it doesn't even if they never respond to you, it has helped your brain refocus on something positive and notice that there is that there are good things out there and that you can contribute in a positive way to the, to, to the world by saying thank you by expressing that you care by, um, by showing that gratitude.
Jessica (14:36):
And I think that, um, if it can bring you out of the swirling thoughts about whether it's the pastor or the future, and instead get you in this moment here right now, what are you grateful for? What, what, um, what connections do you have with other human beings? I think that that can be just incredibly powerful for turning a rough moment around.
Gordon (14:56):
Yeah, because I think as, as we've all experienced over the last two years with having to be isolated because of COVID, it gets very lonely. And I think that is, um, one, one thing, maybe one silver, silver lining to the whole COVID pandemic is, is that it, it allowed people kind of permission if, if you will, to be able to express kind of the mental health struggles that they've had. And that it's, it was okay to do that because we all have experienced at, at different levels over the last couple of years.
Jessica (15:36):
Yeah. In, in a way it was like this thing that we're all in together. And I know that it cause a lot of divisiveness and different ways and stuff too, but, but it was this, this thing that we're in together. And hopefully we, as a society are moving more towards talking more openly about mental health and acknowledging that, that everybody, um, that everybody, I think, struggles at different points and maybe some of us in very different ways from one another. But, um, but, but mental health is, you know, just like physical health. We all have ailments and, um, mm-hmm and sometimes they need more to treat 'em than others, but, um, right.
Gordon (16:12):
It's real. Yeah, it is. So, uh, another thing you were sharing with me before we started recording was just, uh, kind of a practice that you and your kids and your family have been doing around kindness. You wanna say, talk about that.
Jessica (16:27):
Yeah. So with kindness being kind of one of my own core values, I mean, I'm, I maybe take it, you know, um, I, I just, I want, I, I want it out there in the world as I raise children. That's something that I think about and how do you raise kind kind children. And sometimes it's talking to people like you that have some Sage advice and some ideas and some tips that, that you've done. But one thought that I had a couple weeks ago, I was just sitting there. My son, there were some things that we talked about that like, he could have done differently at school that we wish he'd maybe done differently at school mm-hmm . And, and he, I just saw his little face and it was just, he, you know, he wants to do his best. He's trying, he's eight, he's human.
Jessica (17:10):
And, and I just saw that heaviness in his face. And so I just looked at him, I'm like, okay, here's what I wanna now, what did you do today? That was kind. And he goes, oh, I don't know. I just sat there for a minute. And he goes, oh, well, I did this. I helped this friend with this thing. And I, and it was like this, this moment. And again, this click of him thinking about ways that he was kind, he suddenly realized that he had contributed something positive to the world that day, too. Um, and often, you know, I ask about how he does in school and all these other things. And they matter, I, I want him to do well in school. I want him to follow all the rules, but at the end of the day, what I really want is for him to be a kind decent human being, who, um, who has some sense of self in the world.
Jessica (17:55):
Mm-hmm , and that's what that, that, that's what that did. And so we went around the table and we asked every member of our family to share what was something kind. They did that day. And then often, often that leads onto the conversation about what kindness other people have done for us, but it's been, um, it's become our new tradition now for several weeks. And one night I was distracted or stressed or some, I don't know. I didn't ask the question in my four year old daughter looks at me, she's like, mommy, are you gonna ask us the kind thing
Jessica (18:25):
Loved it? Like that that's become our new dinner tradition. My dad always asked us growing up, what was the highlight of our day? Yes. And that was, again, it accomplished the same thing of getting us to focus on what was the best part. And so I love that question. What, what is the highlight of your day? And I think this is like, my version of it is like, what was something kind? What was something you did? And, and, you know, you put out in the world to help build us each up and by golly, I think about before I sit down to dinner, what I'm gonna say now, cuz I'm not getting away without answering the question myself.
Gordon (18:57):
Right, right. Again, I think, you know, it kind of comes kind of fur full circus back a circle back to, um, just thinking about gratitude practices of really finding, figuring out what's going, right. Whether rather than looking at what's going wrong in really being kind of a, a positive, more of a positive influence with people and our family and our kids and that sort of thing, because it, it is, we've got, we do have, as you mentioned, this negativity bias that's built in and it, and I think it, you know, physiologically, it comes from that survival instinct. That's kind of hardwired into our amygdala of, of looking for what is wrong or looking for danger. And I think we can, when we, when we focus in on that too much, that aspect, um, it really help, it really prevents us from having the opportunity to find more kindness and compassion. Cause if we're looking for danger all the time, that's a different state of being a different state of being, uh, of, of looking at the world.
Jessica (20:11):
Yeah. And, and as a recovering perfectionist , I will say that, you know, there are a lot of times where I like the negativity bias. I like that. I am able to see the things that need perfecting in myself. You know, that it's not inherently bad and it's not inherently bad that I can see the potential dangers in the world and, and respond to them. So this is something that, you know, has evolved through, you know, that, that is part of our biology for a reason. Cause it can save us mm-hmm but it does. It, it, this thing that helps us in some areas of our life hurts us so much. Mm-hmm in our mental health and in our relationships, um, it, it really can, and we've gotta find ways, I think sometimes to slow down and, and retrain our brain to not just, I don't wanna say like sometimes it's almost obsessive the way that it thinks latches on and just yes.
Jessica (21:03):
Holds on to that negative when there is so much positive in the world and, and for every one person that's a jerk to you. There are probably three people that are nice to you in really small ways. It's just, it might be something like the person who hands you, your coffee telling you, they hope they ha that you have a nice day, you know, might not be the big, the, the big flashy things. Um, but yeah, I think we can find these little ways in our life to focus on the gratitude we have for the, for the kindness we receive and looking for the little ways that we can build our own, um, sense of self our own, um, our own self-confidence even mm-hmm by, by being kind to other people. I think that, um, I think that if we can find the ways to be kind and to, and to put good out into the world, it can, it can help us by, you know, more than more than we ever dreamed of.
Jessica (21:57):
I think I've seen that with asking this question of my kids. I've gotta say, I learned so much about their friends by asking my kids what they did kind, um, that day I've learned that, uh, I've learned who of their friends needs comforting. Sometimes I've learned who of their friends comfort comforts them. Um, but it's been fun to see how, like, I know my daughter said, you know, there was one friend that was sad and on the playground. And so she went over and gave them a hug and asked if they needed a teacher. And like that friend I've noticed gradually over the last couple weeks, she's playing more with. And so here she had, you know, invested in helping someone else and out of it, she's gotten a closer friendship that yeah. Um, that she clearly values. And I'm like how often in the world is that the way it works? That, yeah, not, not, not saying, not saying people are always nice to you when you're nice to them. I wish that was the case. But I do think if we can, if we can get ourselves unstuck from focusing on the negative sometimes, um, yeah. Big things can happen.
Gordon (22:53):
Yeah. I totally totally agree. And I think it's, uh, something you said, uh, little little bit earlier, you know, just about how, how to retrain our brains. I think it really does take some intentional work in that we do have to be focused on thinking about the world in a different way because, um, you know, I think that's where really where, where change comes is, is that we get a new perspective in being able to see the world in a different way. I have, I have in my office, um, with, um, the work I do with clients and folks have, might have seen this. It's, uh, it's an optical illusion where you it's a picture of a woman, but it's, if you look at it one way, it's a young woman and you look at it another way. It's an old woman. And what I do with that a lot of times is in working with couples is I'll hold the picture up.
Gordon (23:48):
And I say, okay, what do you see an old woman or a young woman? And what I love is when they see different, the different things. And, and so then I work with 'em okay, let me help you see the old woman, if you're seeing the young woman or help you see the old, uh, the, the young woman, if you see the old woman first. And it's like, when you, when they, when it, you know, becomes clear, oh, that's it kind of thing. Um, my whole point in doing that exercise is that that a lot of times we get so focused in, on the way we see the world or the way we're seeing things is that we miss a whole other possibility of seeing things. And it's that the truth of the matter is that picture is not a picture of either or, but it's both a, and so being able to see kind of both perspectives is, is really neat. So yeah, as, as people know, I love metaphors, so I, that's one of the things that kind of stuck out for me. So yeah. So actually, Yeah, go, go ahead, Jessica, what were you gonna say?
Jessica (24:56):
Or I was just thinking, it reminded me of another metaphor I like to use similar, like with how hard it can be to switch that perspective. I like to think of like, if I have a path through woods that I've gone 20,000 times down, and now I'm trying to find this new path that leads to somewhere better, maybe a lake that at first it's really thick. And the first time I go through it, I might, you know, like I have to stop, you know, out some leaves or whatever to clear a new path. Um, but that it's there. I'm gonna meet some resistance from nature to get to this better place. And so similarly, like in our brains, we it's created clear paths to this negative thinking to focusing on the negative. And when we're stressed, like our brain goes the path of least resistance, which is straight to that desperation to that negativity.
Jessica (25:40):
And if we wanna go to this new place of focusing on gratitude, it's kind of like recreating a new path mm-hmm and our brain is still gonna be like, but the path of least resistance is going to the negative. And so you have to over and over again, purposefully, turn your brain, turn your mind to this new way of thinking. Mm-hmm this new perspective. Um, and it's gonna be hard and it's gonna be to get that new path to be more well worn, more automatic for you. It, it takes time, but, but it's doable. It just, yeah.
Gordon (26:10):
Yeah. I love, I love that metaphor. That's a, that's a great one, cuz I love to hike and it's uh, you know, creating new paths in our brain is the same, same thing, the new pathways in our brain. And that's a great metaphor, you know, it's gonna be tough at first, but once you start practicing it and going that way with it, a path really begins gets to be much easier. So I love that. So well, Jessica, what I, I wanna be respectful of our time and tell folks how they can get in touch with you if they wanna connect with you or, um, learn more about you.
Jessica (26:48):
Yeah. Um, the probably the fastest way is email. I love email. I tend to write long ones though in response mm-hmm so anybody would be, uh, welcome to email me at Jessica at aspire, a S P I E counseling Mo Mo for missouri.com.
Gordon (27:04):
All right. And we'll have links in the show summary and show notes for you to connect with Jessica. Well, Jessica, so glad you joined me for this podcast. Um, Jessica's been on my other podcast a few other times, uh, and it's more business related, but, uh, Jessica I'll be seeing you here soon. I'm sure,
Jessica (27:23):
Absolutely. Thank you for having me on.
Gordon (27:25):
Yes.

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About

L. Gordon Brewer Jr., LMFT |Podcast Host – Gordon has spent his career in helping professions as a licensed therapist, counselor, trainer, and clergy person.  He has worked with 100’s of people in teaching them the how to better manage their emotions through self-care and the practices of kindness and compassion.  Follow us on Instagram and Facebook .  And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter.

 

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